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Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters  (Read 6748 times)

Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #15 on: 02:05 AM - 10/14/21 »
Heard it all before this anti cheat will have zero impact on xim, maybe they could see odd inputs with rapid fire scrips ok Cronus but I can't see this impacting xim at all. Even if they looked at console inputs they would probably end up false banning normal controller users.  This is just bs marketing , xim has nothing to worry about and i doubt Cronus also.

We think it will have zero impact on Xim, But... the PS5 thing already has?
I am not suggesting that Sony went out to stop the Xim directly, but what if it did? Has it not worked, at least for the time being?
What if the choice to force the use of the PS5 controller was a conscious choice to also disable the use of Cronus, Titan devices?

I had to write that as two sentences because the Xim is a device to allow a choice of input, where the other devices are all out cheating devices designed for that purpose.

As for the game devs or publishers working on detection.
If they turn up detection to the strictest possible to enable detection ( I truly have no idea if the Xim can be detected, but I have been told it can't ), then subsequently ban other licensed devices maybe like the hori, or even normal controllers. then what difference does that make?
As controllers don't generally have a report rate of 1Khz but a lot of Xim Apex users do, then could that be a method of detection ? 
I can imagine the internal programming of the game be like
Game: "Hey Xbox, how fast are you getting data from that controller"?
Xbox: "@#$% fast man, its coming in at 1Khz"
Game: "Do standard controllers talk to you that fast?"
Xbox: "Nope, not normally but I am loving this it makes me give a better experience"
Game: "Oh, standard controllers don't do this, Hmmm ,   Bad device detected BAN BAN BAN"

I know the use of those devices have been used in competitions, that can't be used as an excuse, they are flashed with very specific firmware, they are in a controlled situation and they also don't play the same game build as the public.

 If you are banned through activation rightly or wrongly there is no return, no negotiation, all bans are final and they will not discuss. Basically, their attitude is, you are banned, we are right and there is nothing you can do about it
and on top of that they do not need to prove your guilt or give you an opportunity to prove your innocents, which you can't.

In short, they don't need a reason to ban anyone, if they say external devices such as we use are not allowed then they are not allowed. It's their game, their rules. Sony or MS can't override those rules.

I know below isn't the same thing, but in principle it is.
I have been banned from the Ubisoft forums for alleged spam,  I made less than 10 posts in 4 years, 4 of them were to report map faults on 4 different maps in RB6 Siege, where people could get under the map, with video evidence showing how it was done which was shared only with the devs so they could fix the map. The rest were answers to those posts when people asked questions.
When I realized I was banned (about 6 months after my last post), I sent an email asking why, I was simply told Spam I explained every post I had made, and asked them to show me evidence of the spam. Their answer was simple, you were banned manually, we would never ban anyone without good reason, there is nothing that can be done, goodbye.

Online antithesis

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #16 on: 02:39 AM - 10/14/21 »
AgentSmith, Activision uses Cronus and Titan devices at official tournaments, precisely because they can run the controller at 1000Hz. So they’re definitely not attempting device-level detection of products they use and endorse themselves by querying polling rates they likely don’t have access to on consoles.

It’s server-side analysis (possibly KDR & TTK) and PC kernel driver-based app detection, not console-based analysis or heuristics. There’s no way they’re gathering and storing data for millions of users, the cost outweighs the benefit.

And no, Sony wasn’t targeting third-party, unlicensed devices. They’re simply forcing everyone to use their shiny new toy. Every gimmick Sony has launched with new console generations has fallen by the wayside within a year or two.

Sony doesn’t want that to happen to the DualSense’s haptics, especially given the bazillions in licensing fees begrudgingly paid to Immersion for rumble feedback in DualShock controllers. By blocking the DualShock 4 itself (and compatible PS4 controllers), they’re taking a clean break from the licensing fees of the past.

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Online antithesis

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #17 on: 02:51 AM - 10/14/21 »
Shane, SAB is built into the latest XIM 4 firmware. It’s there but hidden and not configurable (not enough device memory to create the option).

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Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #18 on: 03:43 AM - 10/14/21 »
Antithesis:
It was a what if post...

With regards to the competition matches and 1Khz  I addressed that. because I expected the competition excuse to be used.

I simply don't have the confidence to say any of the devices can't be detected if someone really wants to, and simply offered a possible way, which I clearly said I wasn't sure of.
Just like I don't have the confidence to say there is a mechanical lock that can't be picked.

But.. As I said with the forcing of the new shiny PS5 controller, it has inadvertently created a situation that has at least temporarily stopped the use of the devices. Now they are aware of that fact,  it opens up the possibility of deliberately using that knowledge.
Would it not be a great selling point for Sony right now?
"Our PS5 system with the latest in controller security has eradicated the use of USB controller adaptors on the latest game titles"
Granted they have no consoles to sell, but still a great selling point.


I understand the game devs probably don't care about the devices because they are such a small minority of the player base (based purely on sales numbers), and just say they are against them to appease the fools that seem to think everyone that kills them are using one. Just like everyone who dies on warzone is apparently killed by a cheater.


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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #19 on: 03:56 AM - 10/14/21 »
Honestly, a multibillion dollar company could care less if less than 0.01% of their playerbase is using a XIM. It's not even a blip on their radar.

Nor does Sony really care about cheating in games on their ecosystem. As long as the ecosystem itself isn't compromised, it's up the devs to solve their own problems. Touting the PS5 as "blocking cheat devices" means nothing to nobody, particularly when the backdoor is wide open.

What Sony do care about is paying licencing fees to a company they strongly dislike who put them over a barrel regarding trademark infringement. That cost them many millions of dollars on PS2, PS3 & PS4 (recall that the PS3 launched with SixAxis, not DualShock 3) and they closed that down by blocking the DS4.

"What if" conspiracy theories don't help. The reality is, and this has been confirmed by both OBsIV and J2Kbr, that their devices are not detectable by the console or game developers at the USB level. They enumerate as the controller connected to them. Full stop.

And Activision is not spending a cent on anything they don't need to, including anti-cheat, when their network infrastructure is abysmal. We all know that. This will be minimal effort to appease the stockholders. Let's not scare the younglings.
« Last Edit: 04:11 AM - 10/14/21 by antithesis »

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Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #20 on: 04:02 AM - 10/14/21 »
Just a note on the haptics feedback on the PS5 controller.

First and foremost, I own a PS5 controller but not a PS5, gotta make that clear, I have never felt the haptic feedback from the PS5, but I never would, if the option is there to turn it off it would be off.

The first thing I have ever done with any controller that offered feedback by way of vibrations, haptic ( steam controller ) or rumble PSX, Xbox is to turn it off.

I would definitely use some kind of haptic, rumble feedback if it was in a full VR suit of some kind  as that would be immersive, but having a vibrator in my hand isn't going to do much for me.

Offline Od1n

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #21 on: 04:05 AM - 10/14/21 »
The haptic feedback of the DS5 is actually really amazing, Warframe uses it in a way i have never experienced it so far. Astros Playroom is also simply amazing with it. Definitely a game changer imo. But thats a PvE game, not a competitive shooter. As soon as a game has a competitive elemet i would turn off haptic feedback! :)
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Online antithesis

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #22 on: 04:05 AM - 10/14/21 »
The haptics on DualSense are impressive (adaptive triggers in particular), but they are a gimmick. A gimmick that solves a huge financial liability, but a gimmick nonetheless.

But Sony doesn't want this one to die the same death of 6-axis and the touchpad before it, so they're forcing it down our throats by disabling DualShock 4 access to PS5 games.

That's the crux of their issue here, not whether or not XIM, Brook, Cronus, Titan et al are blocked, intentionally or otherwise. They likely don't give that a second thought, it's all about the DualSense haptics and breaking away from rumble contractual royalty obligations.

If a game doesn't support DS4, it doesn't require rumble licencing fees or royalties. That's the 200 IQ play Sony is making here. Nothing more, nothing less.
« Last Edit: 04:21 AM - 10/14/21 by antithesis »

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Offline Scrotesmd2

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #23 on: 04:43 AM - 10/14/21 »
The haptics on DualSense are impressive (adaptive triggers in particular), but they are a gimmick. A gimmick that solves a huge financial liability, but a gimmick nonetheless.

But Sony doesn't want this one to die the same death of 6-axis and the touchpad before it, so they're forcing it down our throats by disabling DualShock 4 access to PS5 games.

That's the crux of their issue here, not whether or not XIM, Brook, Cronus, Titan et al are blocked, intentionally or otherwise. They likely don't give that a second thought, it's all about the DualSense haptics and breaking away from rumble contractual royalty obligations.

If a game doesn't support DS4, it doesn't require rumble licencing fees or royalties. That's the 200 IQ play Sony is making here. Nothing more, nothing less.


Yep exactly, it's business at the end of the day.

Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #24 on: 07:08 AM - 10/14/21 »
The funny think about the touch pad is I have only ever used it on the PS4 in one game.
I don't remember the game but it had crappy aim system and used gestures.
Killzone maybe,

You were trying to leave a city by (getting over the wall)

But since I started using the DS4 via Steam I use the pad for so many things.


When it comes to the blocking of devices, it still doesn't matter if intentional or not, what matters is thousands of people who watched the Jack Frags video will be confident they are not being killed on PS5 by those devices, that plays into our hands, all of those player need to accept that they cannot blame their deaths on the devices.
Instead they need to look at themselves and their ability.

Like that will ever happen, everyone known if you are killed the other person is cheating and everyone you kill sucks at the game.




Offline Oskool

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #25 on: 08:10 AM - 10/14/21 »
Preventing cheats is usually a side effect of business decisions, not the driving force behind them.

For example, it's virtually impossible to execute/inject cheat code on current ps and xbox consoles due to software signature checks, and the keys for those checks being securely stored inside the SoC.

Sony and Microsoft didn't design such an elaborate security system because they wanted to stop cheating on their consoles. They designed it to stop pirated games running on their consoles for obvious financial reasons.

I'm sure the same is true for the DualSense 5 USB protocol encryption. It's a decision driven by financial reasons to reduce royalty costs and be the sole supplier of ps5 controllers when the analog sticks wear out in less than a year.

Cheat reduction was never the driving force behind these decisions. It's probably hard for companies to quantify on a pie chart how cheating is financially impacting their revenue. Until they can qualify it on a pie chart, then they're not going to act on it.
« Last Edit: 08:26 AM - 10/14/21 by Oskool »

Offline Just

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #26 on: 10:22 AM - 10/14/21 »
BF2042 is one of the games on PS5 that will only work with a DS5.


Isn't that every ps5 game? Or there is something different about BF2042?

Online OBsIV

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #27 on: 10:28 AM - 10/14/21 »
It's every PS5 game. The company that we are in communication with that have claimed to have solved this problem said they will be sending us their device in a couple days. When they ship it, I'll let the community know.

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Offline tepidblack

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #28 on: 11:18 AM - 10/14/21 »
I’m not too worried about XIM being detected, but I have slide cancel, reload cancel and bunny hop macros on my GPX which I’d honestly hate to have to stop using. I can do all of the movement naturally but it is complete hell on my fingers, especially as I have a clicky keyboard

Offline ShaneN.

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Re: Vanguard anti-cheat rumored to detect input adapters
« Reply #29 on: 03:34 PM - 10/14/21 »
Shane, SAB is built into the latest XIM 4 firmware. It’s there but hidden and not configurable (not enough device memory to create the option).

Can't be configured or can't be used at all?  Why is it noted as being added into the xim4 latest fireware in the notes then?

I'm just trying to figure out what it is, how it works, if it affects the feel and if i should be using it come next month with the new game. I just found out about it in other thread talking about anti cheat.