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Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.  (Read 2208 times)

Offline Santigold

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Honestly,

with new gen consoles supporting native keyboard and mouse input out of the box and it working really well, I think the majority of ppl who want to play on consoles with keyboard and mouse, will just use the native input method.

The main downside of using native input is that you lose aim assist, but this is not as big of a deal as many people think if you tweak your mouse sensitivity properly for hip + ads. On xim it is a bigger deal if you didnt have aim assist, because it basically "emulates" controller input at the end of the day, but with native input method its not as big of a deal if you dont have aim assist.

The advantage of using native input method though is that the aiming feels significantly better and more precise, and you dont have that initial slow kinda acceleration like feeling when you move your mouse using a XIM. On top of that, with native KBM input, you have no turn speed limit, and because of that alone, the general feel is way more natural and kinda free of the chains that you have when using XIM + having a turn speed limit.

Now there are some other scenarios where xim would still make sense, like if you want to use a Sony Nav + mouse to play games and such, or ppl who want to play campaign games like Tomb Raider/Uncharted etc. with keyboard + mouse, but I figure those cases will be the vast minority.

It is simply a fact that with this new gen, xim is on the lowest level of relevancy compared to the last 2 console gens. Now we have very solid implementations of native Keyboard and Mouse input in multiple games, and going into the future even more games will have that feature (more single player games too).

If you compare games like Modern Warfare 19 (+ Warzone) and Cold War running at 120fps + native keyboard and mouse input- it feels like PC literally. Compare that to Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3 back in the day, which was one of the first games to support KBM natively and it ran at 30fps- thats day and night difference. All KBM implementations on consoles before Fortnite and Modern Warfare 19 were pretty bad, but now we have proper implementations that work amazingly well.

So once again, from here on out, the XIM will get more irrelevant by the day.

And sure I know, some whiteknights will come in here arguing and pointing out all sorts of nieche examples that are not possible with native KBM implementations in the games and while those examples might be true, the playerbase that REALLY uses thoe nieche scenarios is really small. The majority of xim users were playing COD, Battlefield, Halo etc. with just a simple keyboard and mouse and nothing else. Well, now it works natively on consoles and much better than the xim could ever do, because it is limited to controller input mechanics (acceleration at different right stick positions, limited turn speed, weird XY ratio that needs to be corrected, same as the acceleration needs to be corrected, weird right stick dead zone shapes that need to be corrected etc.).

The fact of the matter is, even the biggest XIM fanboys and whiteknights will aknowledge this deep inside, that the XIM is at the most irrelevant state of its existency in year 2020 and the irrelevance will just keep growing from here on out. I know it, you know it, xim devs know it- everyone knows it. Denying this fact wouldnt change anything.

And its not even because the product itself got worse or stagnated. The reason for that is that game devs and console manufacturers did a great job of adding native KBM support to consoles and games.
« Last Edit: 06:04 AM - 11/27/20 by Santigold »

Offline JoTi

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #1 on: 06:27 AM - 11/27/20 »
You have a list with games that work with mnk on the Xbox Series X?

Online Maxxgold

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #2 on: 07:06 AM - 11/27/20 »
Honestly,

with new gen consoles supporting native keyboard and mouse input out of the box and it working really well, I think the majority of ppl who want to play on consoles with keyboard and mouse, will just use the native input method.

The main downside of using native input is that you lose aim assist, but this is not as big of a deal as many people think if you tweak your mouse sensitivity properly for hip + ads. On xim it is a bigger deal if you didnt have aim assist, because it basically "emulates" controller input at the end of the day, but with native input method its not as big of a deal if you dont have aim assist.

The advantage of using native input method though is that the aiming feels significantly better and more precise, and you dont have that initial slow kinda acceleration like feeling when you move your mouse using a XIM. On top of that, with native KBM input, you have no turn speed limit, and because of that alone, the general feel is way more natural and kinda free of the chains that you have when using XIM + having a turn speed limit.

Now there are some other scenarios where xim would still make sense, like if you want to use a Sony Nav + mouse to play games and such, or ppl who want to play campaign games like Tomb Raider/Uncharted etc. with keyboard + mouse, but I figure those cases will be the vast minority.

It is simply a fact that with this new gen, xim is on the lowest level of relevancy compared to the last 2 console gens. Now we have very solid implementations of native Keyboard and Mouse input in multiple games, and going into the future even more games will have that feature (more single player games too).

If you compare games like Modern Warfare 19 (+ Warzone) and Cold War running at 120fps + native keyboard and mouse input- it feels like PC literally. Compare that to Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3 back in the day, which was one of the first games to support KBM natively and it ran at 30fps- thats day and night difference. All KBM implementations on consoles before Fortnite and Modern Warfare 19 were pretty bad, but now we have proper implementations that work amazingly well.

So once again, from here on out, the XIM will get more irrelevant by the day.

And sure I know, some whiteknights will come in here arguing and pointing out all sorts of nieche examples that are not possible with native KBM implementations in the games and while those examples might be true, the playerbase that REALLY uses thoe nieche scenarios is really small. The majority of xim users were playing COD, Battlefield, Halo etc. with just a simple keyboard and mouse and nothing else. Well, now it works natively on consoles and much better than the xim could ever do, because it is limited to controller input mechanics (acceleration at different right stick positions, limited turn speed, weird XY ratio that needs to be corrected, same as the acceleration needs to be corrected, weird right stick dead zone shapes that need to be corrected etc.).

The fact of the matter is, even the biggest XIM fanboys and whiteknights will aknowledge this deep inside, that the XIM is at the most irrelevant state of its existency in year 2020 and the irrelevance will just keep growing from here on out. I know it, you know it, xim devs know it- everyone knows it. Denying this fact wouldnt change anything.

And its not even because the product itself got worse or stagnated. The reason for that is that game devs and console manufacturers did a great job of adding native KBM support to consoles and games.

Dude, everyone realizes everything you said. The fact that you had to post this diatribe, and in a patronizing way, just makes you look like a jerk. The fact that you think we don’t all realize that the XIM may be at the end of its life cycle, and we need you to point it out, is seriously laughable. Go do something constructive with your time.   

The XIM team themselves have already stated that they are working on a new project, and that there will be no new XIM. So, congrats Captain Obvious!
« Last Edit: 07:13 AM - 11/27/20 by Maxxgold »
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Offline Santigold

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #3 on: 07:49 AM - 11/27/20 »
Dude, everyone realizes everything you said. The fact that you had to post this diatribe, and in a patronizing way, just makes you look like a jerk. The fact that you think we don’t all realize that the XIM may be at the end of its life cycle, and we need you to point it out, is seriously laughable. Go do something constructive with your time.   

The XIM team themselves have already stated that they are working on a new project, and that there will be no new XIM. So, congrats Captain Obvious!

Why the negative attitude mate, my post wasnt meant to make fun of anything or anyone etc. It is just a state of realization, capturing the present moment of progress. It is just to reflect on the technological progress we have seen over more than a decade now.

I dont think xim devs should have any financial issues for the rest of their lives, so no need to get worked up over current state of things.

Basically we reached a point of progress on consoles, where ppl get a good variety of input options out of the box, which is a good thing.

Also with how things in shooter games developed in the last few years (SBMM), so that you get matched against PC players, even if youre playing on consoles. One good example was a streamer guy, who was an incredibly good Fortnite player on tablet, all of a sudden he got matched in lobbies with Console players and PC players, needless to say- both controllers and mouse + keyboard are way superior to touch-input on Tablet, yet he was so good, that he actually got matched vs console and pc players.

For now, in some games, like COD on ps4/ps5- we can disable crossplay and stay withing the console ecosystem. But I think it is just a matter of time, until we cannot disable crossplay on ps4/ps5 and get matched across all systems.

I think in Fortnite its not possible to disable crossplay, but Im not sure on this one.

On Xbox, afaik, you cant disable crossplay in COD settings, but from what Ive seen, there is a setting inside console settings, that allows you to turn off crossplay, but it is burried so deep in console settings, that basically noone even figures out that this setting exists. Even then if you find it and disable it, from what I hear it is hard to find matches vs other Xbox only players, because only few ppl discover this setting and actually turn off crossplay in Xbox system settings. So again, this appears like useless setting.

Having mentioned all that (the SBMM paragraph), since developers of games start to match ppl more aggressively across all systems, even PC- most shooter game enthusiasts will come to the conclusion, that it makes most sense to switch to PC to play shotter games.

a) because you can tweak all graphics settings to your liking
b) you can have a much higher and more stable framerate with good GPUs (i. e. RTX 3080 on a 240Hz monitor)
c) you have native KBM input without turn speed limit
d) lowest possible input delay due to all the options you can change (vsyn/freesync off, proper 1000hz mouse+keyboard support, Nvidia/amd low latency setting in the drivers etc.)

Essentially, we reached a point, where if people playing on consoles (even controller players) will get matched vs PC players due to SBMM, they might as well switch to PC themselves and take advantage of all the aforementioned advantages, no matter if they play on PC with a controller or with KB+M.

Even COD as a franchise switched to PC as their main plattform for the competitive scene (afaik) starting with this years COD and the CDL tournaments will be played on PCs.

So yeah, Imo as an FPS enthusiast, core/hardcore fan, it makes most sense to switch to PC. Yeah there are cheaters there, but it will get better over time with more efficient anticheat systems. Afaik Valorant has a pretty "decent" anticheat system, but Im not entire sure on that, just what I hear.

Offline Santigold

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #4 on: 08:12 AM - 11/27/20 »
You have a list with games that work with mnk on the Xbox Series X?

Afaik Fortnite, COD Modern Warfare + Warzone, COD Cold War. Basically by far the most popular games on consoles and most played ones.

Apparently Overwatch, Gears 5, Paladins and DayZ also support native KB+M.

I assume that more games will follow, in order to be able to compete with the 2 big titans Epic Games and Activision. (fortnite + cod)

I think it will become the standard in the future, that the majority of fps games will support both controller input with aim assist and keyboard + mouse input without aim assist. Thats how it will be belanced out to make it fair for both sides. It will require some fine tuning with how strong aim assist is etc., but I think it can be done in a rather balanced and fair manner.

Besides that, with increasing use of SBMM in most fps games, it will be kinda irrelevant that keyboard and mouse still has slight advantage over controller + aim assist. People will get matched against other players with similar stats/skill- no matter what input you use. This way it evens out the discrepancy between advantages/disadvantages of different input methods.

For example a 2.3 KD and 3.0 winrate controller player on consoles will probably get matched vs a 2.0 KD + 2.5 winrate players on PC in order for it to be balanced and so on, just an example.

Despite discrepancies in input methods, it is possible to match both playerbases (controller vs kb/m players) evenly with SBMM. I dont see why it wouldnt work, Fortnite proves that it can and does work indeed with its cross-system matchmaking.
« Last Edit: 08:24 AM - 11/27/20 by Santigold »

Offline JoTi

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #5 on: 09:05 AM - 11/27/20 »
THX for the list.

I will try some games with nativ mnk.

Offline antithesis

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #6 on: 06:43 PM - 11/27/20 »
Given both next-gen console offer backwards-compatibility, not all games offer native m/kb and not all of them offer a better m/kb experience than XIM APEX, XIM will continue to be relevant for at least the next 6-8 years.

Not to mention there are plenty of XIMmers who buy one to abuse AA. If AA's in a game, XIM will always find a market.

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Offline MindControlZombies

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #7 on: 09:50 PM - 11/27/20 »
All I wanted was to use MnK on console as I have arthritis a controller kills my hands
and the hassle of Win XP and Vista at the time worrying and wondering if windows will
mess up mid game,XIM 1 was a godsend on PS3 and what OBSIV did with later models
brought pure joy.


Yes I am blown away at the native KnM now the customisation options are
wicked. But Xim will still have a place,I doubt Battlefield will allow native

Keyboard and mouse,maybe they will but I can see folks winging for
controller only lobbies in future and if so
you can use what ever you want.

Xbox BO CW supports full size keyboards but not the G13
so we might need the Xim and Titans to support unsupported hardware or even remap non standard buttons

on fancy keyboards that the console doesn't support. I won't get rid of my Xims I still have XIM 1 ha.
« Last Edit: 10:03 PM - 11/27/20 by MindControlZombies »
If I can make a Good map in 1 month why cant these clowns make a good map in 3 years ?


Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #8 on: 06:12 PM - 11/28/20 »
MindControlZombies

Quote
Xbox BO CW supports full size keyboards but not the G13

I was also pissed about that too,  but it's because the G13 isn't a keyboard, its a multi button joystick.

Offline AgentSmith

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #9 on: 06:32 PM - 11/28/20 »
Overwatch DOES NOT support native KB/M

Below is a list I found which may not be complete, but I have scratched out Warface and Vigor as they doesn't support M/KB yet - But it is future planned.

Atlas
Bomber Crew
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare
Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War
Children of Morta
Day-Z
Deep Rock Galactic
Fortnite
Gears of War 5
Gears Tactics
Microsoft Flight Simulator
Minecraft
Minion Masters
Moonlighter
Paladins
Roblox
Sea of Thieves
The Sims 4
They Are Billions
Strange Brigade
Surviving Mars
Vigor - Not supported but is Planned for future
War Thunder
Warface - Not supported but is Planned for future
Warframe
Wargroove
Warhammer: Vermintide 2
X-Morph: Defense

Offline Goliath23

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #10 on: 01:08 AM - 11/29/20 »
So far m&k is not smooth on ps5 for cod CW. There's constant frame drops and stuttering for some reason that I just dont get with controller. I'm trying to dial in my M&k settings but it's a slow process and movement is saving  me frequently.

Right now it's also not very fun playing against controllers. There is so much aim assist. They just head glitch and lock on with no misses. They hip fire with no misses and lock on.

I can play either and usually get a higher KD with controller and this is me just picking up a controller for the first time in 3 yrs.

Offline BrooklynBuLLY

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #11 on: 08:46 AM - 11/29/20 »
I'll take a new Xim anyway over native m&k, not because if aim assist but because the mouse feels very weird and over sensitive and I don't like it at all... I'm waiting patiently for the new Xim

Offline dpk_ydv

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #12 on: 11:00 PM - 11/29/20 »
It's strange that Apex legends has crossplay without native mouse/ KB support. I feel the native M/KB support in BOCW is better than in MW2019. Even at 1000Hz polling rate there is no acceleration.

Offline AMG

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #13 on: 01:30 AM - 11/30/20 »
MP FPS games are meant to play with mouse and keyboard, just like driving games with a driving wheel.

Variable refresh rate technology will allow better native M/KB support.

Game developers should realize their MP games should match-make base on input: controllers and native M/KB in separate lobbies. M/KB swears that controller users are overpowered with AA, controller players insist that mouse is way better to aim. In addition, not all games has the infrastructure to run that scheme and controller input is the get-go for console gaming, so there still a place for XIM giving M/KB for games that doesn't offers that support, and in the shady side for casual players who want keep using M/KB with AA.

In my short experience in game development, one thing that I learn is: when making/market a videogame your goal is: the time of the player, meaning your market are those who have money to buy your games but no much time to play. So its experience should be fast, fun and frustration free. I can see other devs are going to follow the path that Fortnite dev has taken.

DualSense is pretty darn awesome, pretty happy to see that PS vastly improved kinesthetic experience on gaming, which has been stagnated for generations.

I will continue support XIM because it opens alternatives for many different controllers for people with disabilities.

Sony has shown that there is a way to stop unofficial third party controllers, I hope that keylock needed to bring back XIM or Titan support, is not updateable via control firmware, this means it will have the ability to change that keylock if needed, make it difficult or impractical to offer support. That will be the end of the road for XIM's Playstation Support.
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Offline special_blend

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Re: Xim becoming less relevant with new gen consoles.
« Reply #14 on: 03:32 PM - 12/01/20 »
Honestly,

with new gen consoles supporting native keyboard and mouse input out of the box and it working really well, I think the majority of ppl who want to play on consoles with keyboard and mouse, will just use the native input method.

The main downside of using native input is that you lose aim assist, but this is not as big of a deal as many people think if you tweak your mouse sensitivity properly for hip + ads. On xim it is a bigger deal if you didnt have aim assist, because it basically "emulates" controller input at the end of the day, but with native input method its not as big of a deal if you dont have aim assist.

The advantage of using native input method though is that the aiming feels significantly better and more precise, and you dont have that initial slow kinda acceleration like feeling when you move your mouse using a XIM. On top of that, with native KBM input, you have no turn speed limit, and because of that alone, the general feel is way more natural and kinda free of the chains that you have when using XIM + having a turn speed limit.

Now there are some other scenarios where xim would still make sense, like if you want to use a Sony Nav + mouse to play games and such, or ppl who want to play campaign games like Tomb Raider/Uncharted etc. with keyboard + mouse, but I figure those cases will be the vast minority.

It is simply a fact that with this new gen, xim is on the lowest level of relevancy compared to the last 2 console gens. Now we have very solid implementations of native Keyboard and Mouse input in multiple games, and going into the future even more games will have that feature (more single player games too).

If you compare games like Modern Warfare 19 (+ Warzone) and Cold War running at 120fps + native keyboard and mouse input- it feels like PC literally. Compare that to Unreal Tournament 3 on PS3 back in the day, which was one of the first games to support KBM natively and it ran at 30fps- thats day and night difference. All KBM implementations on consoles before Fortnite and Modern Warfare 19 were pretty bad, but now we have proper implementations that work amazingly well.

So once again, from here on out, the XIM will get more irrelevant by the day.

And sure I know, some whiteknights will come in here arguing and pointing out all sorts of nieche examples that are not possible with native KBM implementations in the games and while those examples might be true, the playerbase that REALLY uses thoe nieche scenarios is really small. The majority of xim users were playing COD, Battlefield, Halo etc. with just a simple keyboard and mouse and nothing else. Well, now it works natively on consoles and much better than the xim could ever do, because it is limited to controller input mechanics (acceleration at different right stick positions, limited turn speed, weird XY ratio that needs to be corrected, same as the acceleration needs to be corrected, weird right stick dead zone shapes that need to be corrected etc.).

The fact of the matter is, even the biggest XIM fanboys and whiteknights will aknowledge this deep inside, that the XIM is at the most irrelevant state of its existency in year 2020 and the irrelevance will just keep growing from here on out. I know it, you know it, xim devs know it- everyone knows it. Denying this fact wouldnt change anything.

And its not even because the product itself got worse or stagnated. The reason for that is that game devs and console manufacturers did a great job of adding native KBM support to consoles and games.

I appreciate this, and enjoyed reading it, as you're a great writer.

With that said, I have had similar thoughts to you. I think the biggest hurdle that I have faced with being a long-time XIM user, moving over to native PC (I am only a CoD player, that is it, that is all), is, at times, I am at a disadvantage against controller players, with now very strong AA in CW (I am not discounting the advantages that native gives you).

It was interesting. After about 4K+ hours playing BO4 on the XIM, I eventually got my PC built and wondered how I would do on native, for the first time in my life. And well, you're right, the movement felt amazing, almost like I had AA, and simply forgot about it while playing. Needless to say, a lot of my efforts on the XIM translated over, and more times then not, outgunned my 1v1 gunfights against lvl1000's Twitch Streamer Tryhards.

That said, I noticed something. Having played the game so much, I knew when I would die and it what scenarios, and I noticed, on PC, I wasn't dying when my mind had already told me I was dead, and it was simply because, my theory is, on average, to a greater or lesser degree, native PC players don't land as many shots as console controller players. When I would get tagged many of the times on console, I knew I was dead, when I was tagged on native, I would make it out alive many of the times.

So, the question I ask myself, and I am sure that many are, is.... is playing with the xim, with all restrictions and downsides that comes along with it, WITH AA, more advantageous than playing on native without AA with the upsides it brings in mixed lobbies? There isn't an easy answer because we are all not created equal. I do know that with my BO4 experience, me, with 4K+ hours, tons of solo nukes, tons of league play, tons of 1v1's, between XBOX, PS4, and PC, most likely in the top 3 in overall kills, on native vs just console players I would be at a disadvantage.

In playing Cold War, a mix of using the XIM on PC, and Native, I can confidently say that a XIM on PC (again, despite the downsides) have an advantage over native PC players (again with all the upsides), JUST BECAUSE the AA is so strong. And I can say playing on native (I am not a veteran) in mixed lobbies, I still feel like the XIM has an advantage, and with my point in all this, is I still think the XIM has a place for people who like the junk food diet. For me, I feel using the XIM when you have an opportunity to play native, tastes so good in the moment. Its what we know, its what were used to, its what were passionate about, however, in the long run I feel with time, persistence, and practice, the pros will outweigh the cons of going native, and your aim will get better without having to deal with a xim and AA bubbles, etc etc, and not to mention having to have 2 mice, 2 kb's to navigate a PC lol

I would admit that spending too much time watching Symph, PWNstarz, NateGibson etc play CW has created bias, in that I see them losing their 1v1's against randoms, and also complaining about how strong AA is. I mean, they better than me, so what makes me think that me going native, I am not going to run into far more scenarios?

That said, the xim on PC is a  junk food diet vs the clean diet, and sadly at the moment, I am liking the junk food diet, however, I can see myself dredging up the time and energy, and some point, to commit to the change (the clean diet lol).

Generally speaking, as a whole, do you feel like native has an advantage over the strong AA we are seeing these days, coupled with SBMM?

Appreciate the chat and topic.

Cheers,

SB 


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