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Apex Legends ST needs retraining  (Read 1436 times)

Offline lev33

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Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« on: 09:00 PM - 02/14/20 »
The Apex Legends ST was trained on default in-game settings, which (compared to Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max pitch and yaw speed) are far from ideal for mouse users. Because the ST was trained on bad in-game settings, every Apex Legends config feels lackluster and inconsistent.

Do the Xim admins need to look at retraining the Apex Legends ST using Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max HIP and ADS pitch and yaw?

I think this would make the configs much better. @mist4fun @OBsVI

Offline Omarf826

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #1 on: 09:52 PM - 02/14/20 »
It definitely needs to be retrained for advanced , no denying it advanced is way better than default recommended

Offline Tetsurobash

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #2 on: 10:54 PM - 02/14/20 »
The Apex Legends ST was trained on default in-game settings, which (compared to Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max pitch and yaw speed) are far from ideal for mouse users. Because the ST was trained on bad in-game settings, every Apex Legends config feels lackluster and inconsistent.

Do the Xim admins need to look at retraining the Apex Legends ST using Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max HIP and ADS pitch and yaw?

I think this would make the configs much better. @mist4fun @OBsVI

So one of the problems is that it was trained with extra pitch and yaw present.

Extra pitch and yaw only take effect when your crosshairs are OUTSIDE of your enemies aim assist bubble.

It causes a massive feeling of deceleration when entering and massive acceleration when exiting.

Wondering why it’s so hard to land shots on strafe gods or your aim feels like mud in close quarters it’s probably the extra yaw and pitch.

That’s why removing all of it makes for a better experience.

Try this test.... remove all yaw and pitch on ads and max out extra yaw and pitch try aiming at the dummies and you will see what I mean.

Offline napalm.death

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #3 on: 01:18 AM - 02/15/20 »
Yes please, judging be the amount of configs and constant updating apex legends seems to be one of the most popular games for xim users (I've got 1200 hours on ps4) so retraining would be great.

Offline Tetsurobash

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #4 on: 02:29 AM - 02/15/20 »
Yes please, judging be the amount of configs and constant updating apex legends seems to be one of the most popular games for xim users (I've got 1200 hours on ps4) so retraining would be great.

Yeah the fact that there are so many configs and a lot of them being either with advanced controls or a different st all together says something. Mist and obsessive do a great job... I know they’ll come up with a solution or suggestions.

Offline The prodigy

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #5 on: 04:04 AM - 02/15/20 »
I agree recommended settings are no longer optimal.   The biggest problem for me is that the "small" deadzone option actually offers a pretty large deadzone, as u can see under Advanced Settings.
We have absolutely zero use for a deadzone that large as it severely limits fine movements, It only helps controller players with stick drift.

Offline Tetsurobash

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #6 on: 04:24 AM - 02/15/20 »
I agree recommended settings are no longer optimal.   The biggest problem for me is that the "small" deadzone option actually offers a pretty large deadzone, as u can see under Advanced Settings.
We have absolutely zero use for a deadzone that large as it severely limits fine movements, It only helps controller players with stick drift.

Lol I remember the day I switched it to large DZ just to see how it felt... original st was good but the game is getting faster and faster the default DZ feels chunky. Perhaps not a retrain but have someone look at advanced settings and give us official guidance on optimal settings.

Offline d1sable

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #7 on: 04:34 AM - 02/15/20 »
Deadzone / acceleration etc are not a problem. The ST accounts for these.

AA is never a consideration either, no game is trained around AA.

The issue is, can we get more turn speed? If the answer is yes then I'm all for it.

I did try to get Mist to look at this with a personal video to him in season 1 or 2.

Sadly he would not consider it due to the sliders not having numbers on them and so it's too complicated for the majority of users to say 8 clicks to left etc.

So by all means try again but i suspect that will be your answer.

Offline ItZ_Me_Not_You

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #8 on: 09:02 AM - 02/15/20 »
It would be great if he made a new "ST" called "Advanced" and have it together with the current one. Defo the ST needs a retrain for advanced settings.

Lets wish!

Offline Tetsurobash

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #9 on: 08:29 PM - 02/15/20 »
Original st feels nice and smooth mist did well. We know a lot more now than we did season 1&2. The issues with the ST is that they do account for acceleration. Extra pitch and yaw probably accounts for 99.9% of the inconsistencies people feel. This isn’t a post to bash on the original ST... it’s a post to educate. I fairly certain things can only get better.

Offline The prodigy

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #10 on: 03:03 AM - 02/16/20 »
From what I know the ST just matches the deadzone used ingame it doesn't improve it at all. It just makes the classic response curve feel linear.
So with this "small" deadzone option we get a more delayed linear experience compared to if the ST was actually trained on a very small deadzone.
Extra Pitch and Yaw are more options that we don't have any use for these are purely controller options that work against mouse movements.

Offline year0

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #11 on: 03:31 AM - 02/16/20 »
The Apex Legends ST was trained on default in-game settings, which (compared to Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max pitch and yaw speed) are far from ideal for mouse users. Because the ST was trained on bad in-game settings, every Apex Legends config feels lackluster and inconsistent.

Do the Xim admins need to look at retraining the Apex Legends ST using Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max HIP and ADS pitch and yaw?

I think this would make the configs much better. @mist4fun @OBsVI

So one of the problems is that it was trained with extra pitch and yaw present.

Extra pitch and yaw only take effect when your crosshairs are OUTSIDE of your enemies aim assist bubble.

It causes a massive feeling of deceleration when entering and massive acceleration when exiting.

Wondering why it’s so hard to land shots on strafe gods or your aim feels like mud in close quarters it’s probably the extra yaw and pitch

Extra yaw & pitch doesn’t work like that, the extra kicks in when your ‘control stick’ is at maximum travel (hard to the outside edge)
This can also be messed with using  the ‘outer threshold’ setting which can trigger the extra yaw etc before you hit the outside edge depending how much you crank it up.
The extra yaw etc is also effected by the ‘delay’ setting (which kinda explains itself) and the ‘time’ setting, which controls how long a period the extra yaw etc is applied over (so a low value is gonna be more intense).

I also don’t think that it’s the ST that gives inconsistent results, I did a heap of testing and tweaking because I thought my ISP was crap and found out that it seems to be apex legends ‘NetCode’ which is meant to be poor..
AA is highly susceptible to  connection problems.
I think it’s maybe why there seems to be more configs posted for legends than other games, and how one day it feels like you’ve got it perfect, then it seems to change
If you believe it gives you an edge, then it does.
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Offline Tetsurobash

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #12 on: 06:22 AM - 02/16/20 »
The Apex Legends ST was trained on default in-game settings, which (compared to Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max pitch and yaw speed) are far from ideal for mouse users. Because the ST was trained on bad in-game settings, every Apex Legends config feels lackluster and inconsistent.

Do the Xim admins need to look at retraining the Apex Legends ST using Advanced Settings with low deadzone and max HIP and ADS pitch and yaw?

I think this would make the configs much better. @mist4fun @OBsVI

So one of the problems is that it was trained with extra pitch and yaw present.

Extra pitch and yaw only take effect when your crosshairs are OUTSIDE of your enemies aim assist bubble.

It causes a massive feeling of deceleration when entering and massive acceleration when exiting.

Wondering why it’s so hard to land shots on strafe gods or your aim feels like mud in close quarters it’s probably the extra yaw and pitch

Extra yaw & pitch doesn’t work like that, the extra kicks in when your ‘control stick’ is at maximum travel (hard to the outside edge)
This can also be messed with using  the ‘outer threshold’ setting which can trigger the extra yaw etc before you hit the outside edge depending how much you crank it up.
The extra yaw etc is also effected by the ‘delay’ setting (which kinda explains itself) and the ‘time’ setting, which controls how long a period the extra yaw etc is applied over (so a low value is gonna be more intense).

I also don’t think that it’s the ST that gives inconsistent results, I did a heap of testing and tweaking because I thought my ISP was crap and found out that it seems to be apex legends ‘NetCode’ which is meant to be poor..
AA is highly susceptible to  connection problems.
I think it’s maybe why there seems to be more configs posted for legends than other games, and how one day it feels like you’ve got it perfect, then it seems to change

I agree with you... but the actual extra pitch and yaw that the game gives you when you pass the threshold immediately stops when your crosshairs are at certain proximity to the enemy. It's not only the AA bubble that we have to overcome but also that acceleration that gets pulled when trying to track or catch up to a moving target. Add the stuff that you're talking about too and sometimes the game doesn't seem fair. Anyway if they were going to do anything about the ST they probably would have done it already... but at least people can take comfort in knowing that their Potato aim isn't 100% on them.

Offline Od1n

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #13 on: 06:45 AM - 02/16/20 »
The problem with the advanced settings are that they are currently too difficult to setup and offer too much potential to screw up. Mists biggest concern is how to ensure that the user picks the correct settings, and something like "use 5 ticks from the left" just isnt accurate enough. There is no value axis or other things that help you to tell what value you are using.
Until theres a solution for that the advanced settings will not be used, although mist agreed that they have some (minor) advantages.
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Offline d1sable

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Re: Apex Legends ST needs retraining
« Reply #14 on: 07:37 AM - 02/16/20 »
Just going to unload some thoughts on this game, some related to this thread and comments, others going off on a tangent. I write this not to be mean, but to try and assist.

The ST and recommended in game settings are great, you can boot up and fry right out the box if you are good with M&K.

The issue in this game is the AA, like many games using a mouse on console.

As opponents get better movement (game been out a while now) and SBMM is in the game the strong AA can be a hindrance.

Changing sync, dpi, hrtz etc has extremely limited effect on AA - it barely matters.

IMO the 3 biggest factors for customizing your AA experience are:

SAB
Steady Aim
In game settings

This games AA really is designed to work with a controller (unsurprisingly), the first 2 on that list basically aim to make your left stick (keyboard) and right stick (mouse) more stick like.

So it logically follows that if you make your config more "stick like" you will get a better AA experience.

(using analogue movement probably helps a great deal in this game)

As ever that probably means sacrificing the "PC feel".

This is where ill remind people that with barely 60 fps and a turn cap we are never going to get the full PC feel.

What is it you want from the game? Because if the answer is to be like Aceu then i'm sorry to break it to you but that probably isn't going to happen - on one hand because of the platform hes on but more so because he is a professional player. Its easy to watch his gameplay and then think "yeah i can do that" but the reality is you most likely cant - at least not without an incredible amount of practice (ie quitting your job). Aim is just a small part, game sense, positioning, team play etc are often more important.

Its not too dissimilar than being pretty good at football, watching Lionel Messi and then expecting to be as good as him - especially if you copy his training and have the same boots....

This game also does not have solos and has random loot - so luck of team mates and pick ups play a big part. You cant be too mad if you kill 2 enemies then the third Gibby with purple shield downs you and your team mates were in Narnia - you just have to accept it was highly unlikely you could win that fight and move on. Its a battle royal - the best players dont always win.

My advice would be to focus your config and play style on fighting somebody 1 on 1 at first.

You should aim to get to the point where you basically never lose a 1 on 1, even if at a disadvantage.

If you do lose 1 on 1s when you feel you shouldn't have then i would suggest you either played it poorly and/or you are not comfortable with your settings

Lets not beat around the bush, we are moaning about the AA but i would take the Xim over a controller any day, for me its still a large advantage and we should be smoking them regardless of our first world problems.

There are many players on here with a high KD and many who probably lurk - its still very much possible to dominate in this game regardless of the AA.

Anyway back on topic somewhat, using the in game settings to further help with AA by removing the acceleration like Tetro has shown in the video above (and in my latest settings) gives a better AA feel to me so thats what i use (we're all individuals). Yes this may effect 1 to 1 somewhat (and lock on AA from afar) but sometimes sacrifices need to be made - again it depends on your game style and guns you use. If you are highly aggressive, play for kills  and use R99 and PK mainly like me then this works for me. As a result standing on a mountain trying to hit Scout shots from 300m may not be as easy as under different settings. Give and take sadly.

As i mentioned before and Od1n has now backed up - the ST is very unlikely to be retrained so lets make use of the variety of configs that the likes of Tetro and others have made for different play styles and weapons and be happy.

The harsh reality is that even if the ST was retrained on perfect advanced settings its unlikely to improve the game / AA experience by much. Try to let that go. Focus on you as a player, what you want to achieve and customize your AA experience to help achieve it.

Happy fragging.

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