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1000hz on pc vs console?  (Read 2500 times)

Offline ultimateisready

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1000hz on pc vs console?
« on: 02:09 PM - 12/02/19 »
I like to play with sync off but 1000hz dont work for me cuz micro adjustment dont feel good with off. However on pc this feels the opposite .

 Is this cuz of Hardware linitations maybe? Anyone tried xim on pc too? Sry my english is nit the best:D

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #1 on: 02:39 PM - 12/02/19 »
It is seemingly a limitation of console software, Xbox One in particular. APEX feels great on PC, but it’s not a supported platform.

XB1 is expecting controller input at 125Hz. The hardware is capable of 1000Hz but the operating system software isn’t built for it, so there are unintended side-effects like garbled audio,  jitter and occasional dropped frames.

PS4 is expecting up to 800Hz input and the console likely functions at 1000Hz (PS3 did), with overhead for consistent 800Hz input, so there are no audio issues and jitter is more of a mouse problem than a console one.

Run XIM APEX at 500Hz instead of 1000Hz and you’re less likely to hit these problems.
« Last Edit: 12:18 AM - 12/04/19 by antithesis »

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #2 on: 09:36 PM - 12/03/19 »
It is seemingly a limitation of console software, Xbox One in particular. APEX feels great on PC, but it’s not a supported platform.

XB1 is expecting controller input at 125Hz. The hardware is capable of 1000Hz but the operating system software isn’t built for it, so there are unintended side-effects like garbled audio,  jitter.l and occasional dropped frames.

PS4 is expecting up to 800Hz input and the console likely functions at 1000Hz (PS3 did), with overhead for consistent 800Hz input, so there are no audio issues and jitter is more of a mouse problem than a console one.

Run XIM APEX at 500Hz instead of 1000Hz and you’re less likely to hit these problems.

Is that 800Hz over Bluetooth or USB? You

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #3 on: 12:18 AM - 12/04/19 »
800Hz over BT, 250Hz over USB -
https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation4

PS4 can handle 1000Hz over USB, so I'm not sure why they're not using it.

PS3 polled 1000Hz over USB, but the DualShock 3 polled at 100Hz on USB & BT -
https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation3

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #4 on: 06:57 PM - 12/04/19 »
800Hz over BT, 250Hz over USB -
https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation4

PS4 can handle 1000Hz over USB, so I'm not sure why they're not using it.

PS3 polled 1000Hz over USB, but the DualShock 3 polled at 100Hz on USB & BT -
https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation3

Will Xim respond to the PS4 over Bluetooth?
Or only USB?

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #5 on: 03:37 AM - 12/05/19 »
USB only, at up to 1000Hz, depending on Response Rate.

A Titan Two will connect to PS4 over BT via the Titan Expansion Kit. So XIM APEX can be wired to the T2, with the T2 wireless to PS4.

I've yet to try this setup, I'll give it a crack when I get some spare time.

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #6 on: 02:58 PM - 12/05/19 »
I’ve disconnected my Ds4 from my Xim & to my surprise the mouse & keyboard remained active for a short time.
So does that mean the Ds4 stays connected via Bluetooth to Xim? PS4? Or both??

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #7 on: 03:15 PM - 12/05/19 »
I’ve disconnected my Ds4 from my Xim & to my surprise the mouse & keyboard remained active for a short time.
So does that mean the Ds4 stays connected via Bluetooth to Xim? PS4? Or both??
Neither. PS4 sends an authentication ping to the DS4 every 10 mins. The mouse & keyboard will continue to work until the PS4 sends the next auth ping and the DS4 fails to respond.

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #8 on: 04:12 PM - 12/05/19 »
So authentication is over USB that why it needs to stay connected...
Wait. If Xim wasn’t in the mix & the Ds4 was being used wirelessly how would that work?

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #9 on: 04:48 PM - 12/05/19 »
So authentication is over USB that why it needs to stay connected...
Wait. If Xim wasn’t in the mix & the Ds4 was being used wirelessly how would that work?
If the DS4 is wirelessly connected to the PS4, it still responds to authentication pings.

I don't know the specifics of why the controller needs to be wired to XIM APEX (Titan Two supports wireless controllers), but USB is likely the lowest common factor (PlayStation and Xbox use different wireless protocols) and isn't reliant on battery life or controller activity to continue to function (wireless controllers will turn off after awhile and need to be recharged).

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #10 on: 10:27 PM - 12/05/19 »
So authentication is over USB that why it needs to stay connected...
Wait. If Xim wasn’t in the mix & the Ds4 was being used wirelessly how would that work?
If the DS4 is wirelessly connected to the PS4, it still responds to authentication pings.

I don't know the specifics of why the controller needs to be wired to XIM APEX (Titan Two supports wireless controllers), but USB is likely the lowest common factor (PlayStation and Xbox use different wireless protocols) and isn't reliant on battery life or controller activity to continue to function (wireless controllers will turn off after awhile and need to be recharged).
So the Ds4 is only used for authentication & Xim sends spoofed HID input to the PS4 over USB?
I always thought Xim triggered button presses in the Ds4 and that those button presses were passed through Xim to the PS4 unchanged.
So Xim acts as a host polling the mouse & keyboard at 1000hz & also as a device to the PS4 with a maximum polling rate of 1000hz.
That’s probably where our delayed input problem comes from. 
Wish there was a way to trigger direct inputs from the Ds4...

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #11 on: 01:36 AM - 12/06/19 »
There is no delayed input if the mouse & keyboard are running at 1000Hz, along with the XIM APEX. That's 1ms end to end.

Unless you're physically pressing buttons and moving sticks on the controller, there is no input registering from it.

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #12 on: 05:44 PM - 12/06/19 »
But there would be if Xim only responded to the PS4 once every 2,4,or 8ms. While grabbing input from the mouse & keyboard every 1ms.
Seems to me Xim would only use the latest 1ms of input data entered before each 2,4,or 8ms Polling interval.
So i believe I mean to say “seemingly”delayed input due to dropped input packets.
Am I making any sense?
Xim should probably poll mouse/keyboard at the same rate it reports to the PS4. 
& to my understanding it only polls peripherals at 1000hz.
« Last Edit: 06:12 PM - 12/06/19 by Mb1966 »

Offline antithesis

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #13 on: 12:36 AM - 12/07/19 »
XIM APEX polls input devices at the defined Response Rate, or the default rate of 125Hz with Expert settings disabled. It also outputs to the console at the RR, with Sync playing a modifier role in there somewhere.

It's not clear how Sync works (it's OBsIV's secret sauce and he's not sharing it) and I believe XIM APEX still polls to the console at the RR. Perhaps Sync interpolates polling rates on-board at the Sync rate, while maintaining the Response Rate.

It may be possible to check this in a Titan Two script. If Sync equates to Output Polling (as I've suggested previously for the sake of simplicity), XIM APEX should desync with a Titan Two, e.g APEX input at 500Hz, output at 60Hz, T2 input at 500Hz, output at 500Hz would desync and toss purple lights on APEX. That doesn't happen, so my guess is Sync is more or less XIM APEX input interpolation rather than output polling.

In short, XIM APEX polls mouse & keyboard at the same rate it reports to the PS4, that's what Response Rate does. This is easily tested - try setting a mouse to 125Hz polling and APEX to 1000Hz RR and see what happens.

The opposite (lower RR than polling) is when input packets are dropped, but that doesn't cause problems as input from the mouse is in sync with output to the console at the RR. Ergo, there is no input lag generated by XIM APEX.
« Last Edit: 12:56 AM - 12/07/19 by antithesis »

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Offline Mb1966

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Re: 1000hz on pc vs console?
« Reply #14 on: 08:42 PM - 12/07/19 »
Offline OBsIV
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Re: Xim Apex Polling

« Reply #5 on: 03:39 PM - 10/07/19 »
Quote
Quote from: Mb1966 on 12:41 PM - 10/07/19
Resulting in diminished data signals. In turn causing lag or button press data to not fully register.

This never happens. The USB host is always the master and XIM will always synchronize to it and make all your peripherals sync to that as well.( XIM operates at 1ms intervals, no matter what.) If you have XIM configured to respond at 125Hz and you mouse is set to 1000Hz, that means 3 out of 4 mouse input values are dropped. But, the benefit of 1000Hz is that the oldest value from your mouse used will never exceed 1ms.



This sure sounds like Xim “only” polls peripherals at 1000hz.
And this example “would” make button presses seem delayed.
So the only “real” option would be to use the same polling rate for peripherals as you use for Xim response rate.