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Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM  (Read 45893 times)

Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #30 on: 07:58 PM - 08/29/20 »
Cronus Zen Gamepacks run at 10ms. Titan Two Gamepacks run at 1ms. You’re adding lag with a Cronus Zen (DS4 runs at 1.25ms, XB1 controller at 8ms).

Zen has built-in Bluetooth, but despite being low latency, the Zen's processing loop of 4.5ms adds input lag. Titan Two needs a Titan Expansion Kit for Bluetooth, but it is 1ms low latency. Titan Expansion Kit can connect to both controllers and supported consoles via Bluetooth and has a mobile iOS / Android app for configuration.
« Last Edit: 08:27 PM - 08/31/20 by antithesis »

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Offline StarBlaze

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #31 on: 04:16 AM - 08/30/20 »
Hi Antithesis. I've read all about your experience with the Zen, but I've come to disagree.

For me, I've used both CMP and T1 for years and when the Titan Two released I wasn't really pleased with anything it offered. I was pretty comfortable with GPC and at the time the increase from 4k bytecodes to 8k wasn't really all that exciting.

I think your issue that you're comparing the two devices as if they had the same audience. Which they do not.

I own a Cronus Zen and use Bluetooth a lot. I don't know if you're just ignoring facts or spreading lies, but it does in fact have a built-in low latency Bluetooth 4.1 with enhanced data rate (EDR) (You can read that on their website). How is it not low latency? I wont lie, I do from time to time (very rarely) feel a tiny bit of a difference when playing over bluetooth, but it is nearly unnoticeable.

You keep comparing the technical side of things, but in practice the Zen is more useful. Nobody on earth is gonna script their own weapon specific anti recoils for EVERY weapon in the game.

The Cronus team already does that for us, with their Warzone Pro GamePack. It offers weapon specific anti recoils and it is THE best GamePack I've ever tried. If you for example use the MP5 you can easily just switch to the MP5 from the GP or OLED and bam the recoil is gone. Obviously you can tune the GP if you have attachments on, but what I'm saying is, the Titan does not offer this and it is why I chose to buy the Zen over T2.

What's the point of having the better hardware, when you don't make any use of it?

Zen just creates more user value. Nobody want's to pŚ $80 for a product then an additional $40(?) for bluetooth.

I'm gonna agree with some of your points. Zen Studio is clearly a Cronus Pro reskin (you can tell by a lot of things in the software) which in practice doesn't mean much, but it just limits its possibilities. All the same Plugins except for M&K Settings. I've tried KBM and I think it is alright. It's not a XIM, but it isn't bad.


I also agree with that the 32k bytecodes that the Zen has on each of its slots is mostly for the OLED. But, you're free to not to use the OLED tbh ;)












Offline devilangelsoul

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #32 on: 05:10 AM - 08/30/20 »
I need it to use scripts (anti recoil and other) and have the least input lag on xbox.What is the best?

Offline StarBlaze

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #33 on: 06:00 AM - 08/30/20 »
devilangelsoul,

My advice would be Cronus Zen. The WZ Pro GamePack already has all the anti-recoils created for all weapons in the game. People have spent hours perfecting the anti-recoils.

On the other hand, on the Titan Two you would have to create the script yourself as the GamePacks provided are very simple.

But as for Antithesis, you do realize you can adjust the VM speed in Zen Studio right? Even for GPs. So it doesn't have to be 10ms, it can be 1ms too. Besides 10ms is nothing.

Go to https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime and see your reaction time. Mine is between 195-300 and got an average of 250ms.

So it doesn't even matter if it's 1ms or 10ms. And if you're using an Xbox One Controller, which has a polling rate of 8ms, you can just adjust the VM speed to 8ms. Bam. But I do not recommend it.

Also,
Sony (Wired) average input speed: ~13ms
2016 CronusMax+ : ~10.5ms (wired)
Tournament Stick by CM: ~4.5ms (wired)
https://battlebeavercustoms.com/products/tournament-stick-by-collective-minds

The Cronus Zen and CM Tournament Stick are both developed by the same people and MaxAdmin says that they use the same technology for The Zen, which means the Zen should have an average input lag of 4,5ms.

---Edit---

Also, Computer Vision is a really really nice thing, but I still think you're missing the point here.

Zen feels like it is made to be simple and independent from the computer. Idk if you realized it, but Cronus has always tried to make it easier for the users to use their device without their PCs connected at all times.

The OLED does that for you. You can literally Edit the ENTIRE Gamepack from the OLED. Something you cannot with the T2.

And even though the CV is a really neat feature, you can still just change weapons manually or put the setting on "weapon swap".


Sure T2 has the Mobile App, which is in fact very good if you play from the couch, but it's useless for me personally.

« Last Edit: 06:14 AM - 08/30/20 by StarBlaze »

Offline devilangelsoul

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #34 on: 06:27 AM - 08/30/20 »
devilangelsoul,

My advice would be Cronus Zen. The WZ Pro GamePack already has all the anti-recoils created for all weapons in the game. People have spent hours perfecting the anti-recoils.

On the other hand, on the Titan Two you would have to create the script yourself as the GamePacks provided are very simple.

But as for Antithesis, you do realize you can adjust the VM speed in Zen Studio right? Even for GPs. So it doesn't have to be 10ms, it can be 1ms too. Besides 10ms is nothing.

Go to https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime and see your reaction time. Mine is between 195-300 and got an average of 250ms.

So it doesn't even matter if it's 1ms or 10ms. And if you're using an Xbox One Controller, which has a polling rate of 8ms, you can just adjust the VM speed to 8ms. Bam. But I do not recommend it.

Also,
Sony (Wired) average input speed: ~13ms
2016 CronusMax+ : ~10.5ms (wired)
Tournament Stick by CM: ~4.5ms (wired)
https://battlebeavercustoms.com/products/tournament-stick-by-collective-minds

The Cronus Zen and CM Tournament Stick are both developed by the same people and MaxAdmin says that they use the same technology for The Zen, which means the Zen should have an average input lag of 4,5ms.

---Edit---

Also, Computer Vision is a really really nice thing, but I still think you're missing the point here.

Zen feels like it is made to be simple and independent from the computer. Idk if you realized it, but Cronus has always tried to make it easier for the users to use their device without their PCs connected at all times.

The OLED does that for you. You can literally Edit the ENTIRE Gamepack from the OLED. Something you cannot with the T2.

And even though the CV is a really neat feature, you can still just change weapons manually or put the setting on "weapon swap".


Sure T2 has the Mobile App, which is in fact very good if you play from the couch, but it's useless for me personally.

thank you for your answer .... but I'm more confused than before, actually I don't know which one is better at the moment, because reading a bit around many say that, however new, the cronus zen is more obsolete and less performing than the titan two.

Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #35 on: 02:56 PM - 08/30/20 »
For me, I've used both CMP and T1 for years and when the Titan Two released I wasn't really pleased with anything it offered. I was pretty comfortable with GPC and at the time the increase from 4k bytecodes to 8k wasn't really all that exciting.
I agree, the bump to 8KB was meh...at the time. But T2 scripts can now be nested, so any number of 8KB scripts can be imported into a parent script, far exceeding the Zen's 32KB bytecode limit, whilst running that code at 1ms.

The reason for the 8KB bytecode limit is to ensure Titan Two runs at 1ms. That's a hard limit that can't be bypassed. 32KB bytecode is why Zen is incapable of running any faster than 4.5ms and most of that is dedicated to running the LED screen. In other words, the LED screen inhibits performance.

It doesn't matter if the VM can run at 1ms if the Zen's processing loop can't process it at that speed. If you want to make an apples to apples comparison, Zen is at best 4.5 x slower than a Titan Two.

devilangelsoul,

My advice would be Cronus Zen. The WZ Pro GamePack already has all the anti-recoils created for all weapons in the game. People have spent hours perfecting the anti-recoils.

On the other hand, on the Titan Two you would have to create the script yourself as the GamePacks provided are very simple.

But as for Antithesis, you do realize you can adjust the VM speed in Zen Studio right? Even for GPs. So it doesn't have to be 10ms, it can be 1ms too. Besides 10ms is nothing.

Go to https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime and see your reaction time. Mine is between 195-300 and got an average of 250ms.

So it doesn't even matter if it's 1ms or 10ms. And if you're using an Xbox One Controller, which has a polling rate of 8ms, you can just adjust the VM speed to 8ms. Bam. But I do not recommend it.

Also,
Sony (Wired) average input speed: ~13ms
2016 CronusMax+ : ~10.5ms (wired)
Tournament Stick by CM: ~4.5ms (wired)
https://battlebeavercustoms.com/products/tournament-stick-by-collective-minds

The Cronus Zen and CM Tournament Stick are both developed by the same people and MaxAdmin says that they use the same technology for The Zen, which means the Zen should have an average input lag of 4,5ms.

---Edit---

Also, Computer Vision is a really really nice thing, but I still think you're missing the point here.

Zen feels like it is made to be simple and independent from the computer. Idk if you realized it, but Cronus has always tried to make it easier for the users to use their device without their PCs connected at all times.

The OLED does that for you. You can literally Edit the ENTIRE Gamepack from the OLED. Something you cannot with the T2.

And even though the CV is a really neat feature, you can still just change weapons manually or put the setting on "weapon swap".


Sure T2 has the Mobile App, which is in fact very good if you play from the couch, but it's useless for me personally.


Titan Two has multiple scripts with all of the anti-recoil already programmed for it. You can create your own scripts on both devices, but GPC2 is functionally more powerful and Titan Two has a faster processing loop. Gamepacks on both devices are intentionally pretty simple. The best stuff is made by the community, not the developers.

Titan Two Computer Vision automatically detects the weapon in-hand and adjusts rapid-fire, anti-recoil, aim assist abuse...any number of variables just for that specific weapon. Yes, you can add weapon tracking to a Cronus script, but at best you're able to track 3 weapons (tap weapon swap, hold weapon swap) and the tracking can easily go off (I wrote some hefty Destiny scripts that tracked Primary, Secondary and Heavy so know what I'm on about here). 

Cronus Zen weapon tracking won't help in a battle royale game (the most popular current genre), which requires tracking of maybe 8-12 weapons. Have fun finding your current weapon on your dinky Zen screen in the middle of a firefight in a game with few to no respawns.

Lag stacks, so your reaction time example is actually Display Lag + Network Lag + Input Lag + Reaction Time + console V-Sync. Regardless, you will easily feel the difference between 10ms vs 1ms for controller or mouse input.

A stream of 10ms vs 1ms makes a significant difference, especially when it comes to m/kb input (Zen mouse input is jittery and inconsistent on any angular vector). 10ms is slower than a XIM 4 and it's very easy to tell the difference between XIM 4's 8ms and 1ms input on an APEX. It's also significant when touting your device as e-sports competitive.

Titan Two runs at sub-1ms, Zen at its fastest is 4.5ms. DS4 over USB is 4ms, not 13ms (https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation4). DS4 over BT is 1.25ms. XB1 controller is 4ms over USB and 8ms over wireless. Zen adds more input lag than Titan Two, period. Zen's 4.5ms processing loop also ensures that a DS4 will NEVER be in sync with the console. It's only possible to do so using a wireless Xbox One controller at half the speed of a USB connection.

Gamepacks are locked at 10ms on Cronus Zen. The processing loop of Zen can be decreased to 1ms (though no scripts will run that fast), but Gamepacks cannot. Look it up, it's confirmed on their Discord by one of their Gamepack developers who warns against changing the VM speed -



Recent Zen Gamepacks may have unlocked the vm_tctrl ( ) performance handbrake (possible, but doubtful) however the processing loop of the Zen remains locked at 4.5ms at best, so a Zen GPC script or Gamepack CANNOT take advantage of 4ms or lower VM speed. The fastest a Zen Gamepack or GPC script will run is 5ms. That's 5 x slower than a Titan Two and out of sync with the console.

The OLED screen is useless from more than a foot away, with very little visible information (4 lines?). Good luck using it from the couch. We all have our mobiles handy and can use it at any time to access far more visible info in Gtuner Air. You can also configure Titan Two on-the-fly using Gtuner Air, something you can't do on the Zen's screen.

Alternately, connecting Titan Two to PC or Mac (Zen does not support Mac) and running the Gamepack or script direct within Gtuner IV allows easy access to full-screen Interactive Configuration menus without a BT connection. That's your benchmark when comparing desktop usage of the Zen's LED screen.

Where did you get the low latency information on the Cronus website? If I'm wrong, I stand corrected, but I can't see it. In any case, low latency doesn't help when the Zen can't run faster than 4.5ms. Again, a native DS4 runs at 1.25ms over Bluetooth...Zen adds lag.

The sole advantage Cronus has over ConsoleTuner is manpower. They are able to dedicate more resources to Gamepack development, most of which are more basic than those on Titan Two. But Zen's 10 year old GPC + a few functions is far less performant or functional than Titan Two's 3 year old GPC2 and will ALWAYS run slower than a Titan Two Gamepack. Adding more Gamepacks is something that I've encouraged J2K to address and Computer Vision was developed to improve the community's ability to make more m/kb Input Translators.
« Last Edit: 08:21 PM - 08/31/20 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline devilangelsoul

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #36 on: 03:09 PM - 08/30/20 »
devilangelsoul,

My advice would be Cronus Zen. The WZ Pro GamePack already has all the anti-recoils created for all weapons in the game. People have spent hours perfecting the anti-recoils.

On the other hand, on the Titan Two you would have to create the script yourself as the GamePacks provided are very simple.

But as for Antithesis, you do realize you can adjust the VM speed in Zen Studio right? Even for GPs. So it doesn't have to be 10ms, it can be 1ms too. Besides 10ms is nothing.

Go to https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime and see your reaction time. Mine is between 195-300 and got an average of 250ms.

So it doesn't even matter if it's 1ms or 10ms. And if you're using an Xbox One Controller, which has a polling rate of 8ms, you can just adjust the VM speed to 8ms. Bam. But I do not recommend it.

Also,
Sony (Wired) average input speed: ~13ms
2016 CronusMax+ : ~10.5ms (wired)
Tournament Stick by CM: ~4.5ms (wired)
https://battlebeavercustoms.com/products/tournament-stick-by-collective-minds

The Cronus Zen and CM Tournament Stick are both developed by the same people and MaxAdmin says that they use the same technology for The Zen, which means the Zen should have an average input lag of 4,5ms.

---Edit---

Also, Computer Vision is a really really nice thing, but I still think you're missing the point here.

Zen feels like it is made to be simple and independent from the computer. Idk if you realized it, but Cronus has always tried to make it easier for the users to use their device without their PCs connected at all times.

The OLED does that for you. You can literally Edit the ENTIRE Gamepack from the OLED. Something you cannot with the T2.

And even though the CV is a really neat feature, you can still just change weapons manually or put the setting on "weapon swap".


Sure T2 has the Mobile App, which is in fact very good if you play from the couch, but it's useless for me personally.


Titan Two has multiple scripts with all of the anti-recoil already programmed for it. You can create your own scripts on both devices, but GPC2 is functionally more powerful and Titan Two has a faster processing loop. Gamepacks on both devices are intentionally pretty simple. The best stuff is made by the community, not the developers.

Titan Two Computer Vision automatically detects the weapon in-hand and adjusts rapid-fire, anti-recoil, aim assist...any number of variables for that specific weapon. Yes, you can add weapon tracking to a Cronus script, but at best you're able to track 3 weapons and the tracking can easily go off (I wrote some hefty Destiny scripts that tracked Primary, Secondary and Heavy so know what I'm on about here). 

Cronus Zen weapon tracking won't help in battle royale game (the most popular current genre), which requires tracking of maybe 8-12 weapons. Have fun finding your current weapon on your dinky Zen screen in the middle of a firefight.

A stream of 10ms vs 1ms makes a significant difference, especially when it comes to m/kb input (Zen has awful m/kb). 10ms is slower than a XIM 4 and it's very easy to tell the difference between XIM 4's 8ms and 1ms input on an APEX. It's also significant when touting your device as e-sports competitive.

Titan Two runs at sub-1ms, Zen at its fastest is 4.5ms. DS4 over USB is 4ms, not 13ms (https://www.consoletuner.com/wiki/index.php?id=t2:usage_guides:systems:playstation4). DS4 over BT is 1.25ms. Zen adds input lag, period.

Gamepacks are locked at 10ms on Cronus Zen. The processing loop of Zen can be increased to 1ms (though no scripts will run that fast), but Gamepacks cannot. Look it up, it's confirmed on their Discord.

The OLED screen is useless from more than a foot away, with very little visible information (4 lines?). Good luck using it from the couch. We all have our mobiles handy and can use it at any time to access far more visible info in Gtuner Air. Alternately, connecting the Titan Two to PC or Mac (Zen does not support Mac) and running the Gamepack or script allows easy access to the Interactive Configuration menus without a BT connection.

Where did you get the low-latency information on the Cronus website? If I'm wrong, I stand corrected, but I can't see it.

Also, my Zen that has been used a handful of times disconnects within a minute and can't be found by the Cronus FW update tool. Zen Studio sees it just fine, so it's not my cable or USB ports. Adjusting the VM speed on my Zen currently does nothing. Peanuts...monkeys.

Antithesis there is news about compatibility with necgen console??? i don't want buying titan two for nothing, and the smartphone app work only if i have a bluethoot kit??or works with the titan even without ???
« Last Edit: 03:24 PM - 08/30/20 by devilangelsoul »

Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #37 on: 03:41 PM - 08/30/20 »
No-one knows what will happen with next-gen consoles. ConsoleTuner believes Xbox Series X compatibility will be 100%, PS5 confidence sits at around 95% depending on DualSense detection and functionality.

Titan Two's Bluetooth support and Gtuner Air app require a Titan Expansion Kit.

Most of us don't use T2 BT for the same reason StarBlaze can use the Zen's LED screen - we're close enough to Titan Two, XIM APEX (which Zen doesn't support) and a PC or Mac that we don't need BT and can use Gtuner IV for on-the-fly for Gamepack / Interactive Configurator access. Even better, we just hook our Titan Two into PC via Computer Vision and have the script handle all of that automatically.

We are only just scratching the surface of CV on T2. CV will likely never come to Cronus Zen, neither Zen Studio nor the Zen device seem powerful enough to use it.

Zen is a CronusMAX 1.5. It's not even close to competing with a Titan Two for mods & macros, nor a Titan Two or XIM APEX for m/kb. As I mentioned, if you're a noob who doesn't care about input lag or advanced functionality and just wants some basic mods, get a Zen as it's arguably an easier entry point than a Titan Two due to its limited capabilities. But, when you outgrow basic Gamepacks and want better performance, you'll graduate to a Titan Two.
« Last Edit: 08:29 PM - 08/31/20 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline devilangelsoul

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #38 on: 03:57 PM - 08/30/20 »
No-one knows what will happen with next-gen consoles. ConsoleTuner believes Xbox Series X compatibility will be 100%, PS5 confidence sits at around 95% depending on DualSense detection and functionality.

Titan Two's Bluetooth support and Gtuner Air app are dependent on the Titan Expansion Kit.

Most of us don't use T2 BT for the same reason StarBlaze can use the Zen's LED screen - we're close enough to Titan Two, XIM APEX (which Zen doesn't support) and a PC or Mac that we don't need BT and can use Gtuner IV for on-the-fly for Gamepack / Interactive Configurator access. Even better, we just hook our Titan Two into PC via Computer Vision and have the script handle all of that automatically.

We are only just scratching the surface of CV on T2. CV will never come to Cronus Zen, neither Zen Studio nor the Zen device are powerful enough to use it.

thank you so much for the info, i just ordered the titan two and i hope it was worth it.

Offline StarBlaze

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #39 on: 04:17 PM - 08/30/20 »
Personally I play Warzone and not fortnite, but I understand your point with CV. It's a very good future and it's way ahead of it's time IMO.

I'm also pretty convinced that Zen developers create better GP's than the Community (I believe that all the Pro Packs are created by Collective Minds).

For the Low Latency thing, if you go to https://cronusmax.com and scroll down until "State of the art" (the dark space) you'll se it there. Or just control+f and search latency.

In the end I think both are very good devices but it all comes down to what the user needs. For me personally, I only use this for CoD and the GamePacks the Cronus Team creates are just unmatched for me. I also only play from my setup and on a monitor so the OLED is very useful for me. Sure I did consider T2 but even though Zen does not tick all boxes, it does tick many of them and it isn't really worth spending extra for the T2, because I know I wont be using all the extra features. To get the app, you must buy the bluetooth for it, for CV you must buy a Capture Card.

I think if Zen had the bluetooth built in like Cronus, it would've been much better and more appealing.

As for KBM, The Zen KBM Engine isn't all that bad with correct settings. Sure, it isn't perfect. It's good for people who switch between controller/kbm IMO. If someone is serious about KBM Gaming they should probs get a XIM over a Zen.


 

Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #40 on: 04:45 PM - 08/30/20 »
For the Low Latency thing, if you go to https://cronusmax.com and scroll down until "State of the art" (the dark space) you'll se it there. Or just control+f and search latency.
Thanks for that. I stand corrected, but it still doesn't help given the 4.5ms processing loop on Zen  ???

In the end I think both are very good devices but it all comes down to what the user needs. For me personally, I only use this for CoD and the GamePacks the Cronus Team creates are just unmatched for me. I also only play from my setup and on a monitor so the OLED is very useful for me. Sure I did consider T2 but even though Zen does not tick all boxes, it does tick many of them and it isn't really worth spending extra for the T2, because I know I wont be using all the extra features. To get the app, you must buy the bluetooth for it, for CV you must buy a Capture Card.

I think if Zen had the bluetooth built in like Cronus, it would've been much better and more appealing.

As for KBM, The Zen KBM Engine isn't all that bad with correct settings. Sure, it isn't perfect. It's good for people who switch between controller/kbm IMO. If someone is serious about KBM Gaming they should probs get a XIM over a Zen.
100% agree, on the surface Zen offers a great value proposition. But under scrutiny, which is the purpose of this thread, it quickly falls apart. My initial interest in Zen was to prove or disprove MAX-Admin's claim that Zen is a XIM-killer, which is nothing short of laughable. Three years of m/kb development went into Zen...sure it did little buddy, sure it did.

Zen is more noob-friendly than a Titan Two if you don't know the difference between a Gamepack and an Input Translator (both can be stacked), but it will never outperform one, nor offer as much functionality. ConsoleTuner does need to work on making Gtuner IV more noob-friendly, but that's harder to do when it offers an arsenal of tools that can't be matched by Zen Studio.

Ultimately, this is a XIM forum and the argument between which device is better to use with a XIM is a short one. Titan Two fully supports XIM APEX with all supported console controllers and at all Response Rates. Zen does not.

By the way, you should check out USER101's Warzone T2 script. Arguably, all you really need on T2 is Mad's Universal Gamepack and Universal HID Gamepack. Stack CV as the cherry on top, which is supported in recent official Titan Two Gamepacks, including Apex Legends.

Zen can't beat any of the better T2 Gamepacks or GPC2 scripts and keep in mind, these are bloat-free 8KB or smaller scripts. Nobody has tapped into the potential of importing child scripts yet, which could be implemented for example to support every weapon in Destiny 2, or every combo of weapon mods in PUBG, Warzone etc.
« Last Edit: 06:18 PM - 08/30/20 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline StarBlaze

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #41 on: 05:37 AM - 08/31/20 »
For the Low Latency thing, if you go to https://cronusmax.com and scroll down until "State of the art" (the dark space) you'll se it there. Or just control+f and search latency.
Thanks for that. I stand corrected, but it still doesn't help given the 4.5ms processing loop on Zen  ???

In the end I think both are very good devices but it all comes down to what the user needs. For me personally, I only use this for CoD and the GamePacks the Cronus Team creates are just unmatched for me. I also only play from my setup and on a monitor so the OLED is very useful for me. Sure I did consider T2 but even though Zen does not tick all boxes, it does tick many of them and it isn't really worth spending extra for the T2, because I know I wont be using all the extra features. To get the app, you must buy the bluetooth for it, for CV you must buy a Capture Card.

I think if Zen had the bluetooth built in like Cronus, it would've been much better and more appealing.

As for KBM, The Zen KBM Engine isn't all that bad with correct settings. Sure, it isn't perfect. It's good for people who switch between controller/kbm IMO. If someone is serious about KBM Gaming they should probs get a XIM over a Zen.
100% agree, on the surface Zen offers a great value proposition. But under scrutiny, which is the purpose of this thread, it quickly falls apart. My initial interest in Zen was to prove or disprove MAX-Admin's claim that Zen is a XIM-killer, which is nothing short of laughable. Three years of m/kb development went into Zen...sure it did little buddy, sure it did.

Zen is more noob-friendly than a Titan Two if you don't know the difference between a Gamepack and an Input Translator (both can be stacked), but it will never outperform one, nor offer as much functionality. ConsoleTuner does need to work on making Gtuner IV more noob-friendly, but that's harder to do when it offers an arsenal of tools that can't be matched by Zen Studio.

Ultimately, this is a XIM forum and the argument between which device is better to use with a XIM is a short one. Titan Two fully supports XIM APEX with all supported console controllers and at all Response Rates. Zen does not.

By the way, you should check out USER101's Warzone T2 script. Arguably, all you really need on T2 is Mad's Universal Gamepack and Universal HID Gamepack. Stack CV as the cherry on top, which is supported in recent official Titan Two Gamepacks, including Apex Legends.

Zen can't beat any of the better T2 Gamepacks or GPC2 scripts and keep in mind, these are bloat-free 8KB or smaller scripts. Nobody has tapped into the potential of importing child scripts yet, which could be implemented for example to support every weapon in Destiny 2, or every combo of weapon mods in PUBG, Warzone etc.

Yeah I agree with the fact that Zen is pretty much dummy proof. But if we're comparing the GPC Scripts and GamePacks I think both the Cronus community and the Cronus Developers are way better than the Titan Community or the devs.

Even though Zen isn't as powerful as the T2 in terms of Hardware, it still allows for a lot advanced stuff within the GPC, which is constantly updated by the developers. Just take a peek in the Zen GPC Library and the T2 GPC Library. The Zen community produces far better scripts.

I'm not 100% sure, but afaik Titan Two Apex Legends Gamepack do not include configurations for each gun. The Zen Apex Legends Pro Gamepack do.

I don't play much Apex, but say I'm using the Flatline AR, The Zen Gamepack already has an anti-recoil created for that specific weapon. So if I shoot in the game, there's literally no recoil and I do not even have to change many (if any) values.

I've checked the GP Manual on Consoletuner.com for Apex Legends and it says you have to configure it yourself... Then I'm sorry, but what is the point of that GamePack?

And again, correct me if I'm wrong.


Another thing that proves my point is, on the Consoletuner forums they literally created a "Script Conversion Megathread" to convert Cronus scripts to work with Titan Scripts. They made a tool to convert CronusMax scripts to T2 Scripts. I've seen discussions of making a tool to convert Zen scripts to T2 scripts..




Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #42 on: 05:27 PM - 08/31/20 »
Yeah I agree with the fact that Zen is pretty much dummy proof. But if we're comparing the GPC Scripts and GamePacks I think both the Cronus community and the Cronus Developers are way better than the Titan Community or the devs.

Even though Zen isn't as powerful as the T2 in terms of Hardware, it still allows for a lot advanced stuff within the GPC, which is constantly updated by the developers. Just take a peek in the Zen GPC Library and the T2 GPC Library. The Zen community produces far better scripts.

I'm not 100% sure, but afaik Titan Two Apex Legends Gamepack do not include configurations for each gun. The Zen Apex Legends Pro Gamepack do.

I don't play much Apex, but say I'm using the Flatline AR, The Zen Gamepack already has an anti-recoil created for that specific weapon. So if I shoot in the game, there's literally no recoil and I do not even have to change many (if any) values.

I've checked the GP Manual on Consoletuner.com for Apex Legends and it says you have to configure it yourself... Then I'm sorry, but what is the point of that GamePack?

And again, correct me if I'm wrong.


Another thing that proves my point is, on the Consoletuner forums they literally created a "Script Conversion Megathread" to convert Cronus scripts to work with Titan Scripts. They made a tool to convert CronusMax scripts to T2 Scripts. I've seen discussions of making a tool to convert Zen scripts to T2 scripts..

Titan Two offers backwards-compatibility with Titan One, which is essentially the same thing as a CronusMAX PLUS, only with better controller and console support (e.g. Nintendo Switch, Elite Series 2, Bluetooth Xbox Wireless Controllers work on Titan One but not CronusMAX PLUS).

The script conversion thread is to convert Titan One code to Titan Two. CronusMAX GPC just happens to be the same thing as Titan One GPC, only with less error checking. There's more sloppy code to fix in a CM+ GPC script, whereas most T1 GPC scripts only need to add one line of code to the top to run on a T2 due to the stricter compiler compliance. The only thing you've proven if CM scripts are popping up in the conversion thread is the average CM script is written more poorly than T1 code.

The reason CM+ and T1 are so alike is because they, along with the GPC language, were created by same man - Jefferson Koppe at ConsoleTuner (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jkoppe/en). He invented the predecessor to both devices, named the Gamepad Proxy (GPC = Gamepad Proxy Code). Look closely at his LinkedIn profile - "The Cronus device (2012) is a renaming of the device initially called Gamepad Proxy, conceived and developed by Jefferson Koppe in 2011."

I'm not going to school you on why two almost exact devices exist in the CM+ and T1 (scrap that, I did it below), suffice to say the people behind Cronus aren't all sunshine and unicorns. The only reason CronusMAX and Cronus Zen exist is because of the Titan Two developer. Titan Two Gamepacks are written by the man who created GPC and GPC2, so your "way better than Titan Two devs" sleight against J2K's coding prowess is comical.

Cronus Developers hacked J2K's GPC codebase and built slightly upon it for Zen, but they didn't create it. GPC is ancient, limited and dated compared to GPC2, even with recent additions. The primary reason for this is GPC has 8-bit precision, meaning you get a value range of -128 to +127, with no support for decimal precision, which requires at least 16-bit processing.

Zen's limited 8-bit range directly impacts antirecoil, which is affected by decimal precision. Furthermore, GPC wait or hold times for things like burst fire or phased antirecoil are limited to 4000ms. They can be chained, but not in a Gamepack.

GPC2 has a 32-bit range of −2,147,483,648 through 2,147,483,647, with a long tail of decimal precision. Antirecoil on Titan Two can be pixel-precise because GPC2 code has 17 million times higher resolution than GPC. Titan Two hold or wait times blow out to 32767ms, which can be included in a Gamepack and in any community-made Modpack. To be fair, both devices can use timers, but Titan Two has 1ms precision, Zen has at best 5-10ms.

Boiling recoil control down to very basic terms, Zen only has a controller input range of -100 to +100 with no decimal precision, running in a 10ms processing loop for Gamepacks. Titan Two has an effective controller input range of -100.00 to +100.00 (more decimals are possible, but have diminished returns), with granular decimal precision running in a 1ms processing loop. Zen cannot account for antirecoil values less than whole numbers, Titan Two can. Get your antirecoil code off by as little as 0.1 and you will notice the difference.

Not to mention GPC2 features dozens of 32-bit types and functions that don't exist in 8-bit GPC code. Zen runs 8-bit GPC code at 5ms at its fastest with Gamepacks locked at 10ms. Titan Two runs 32-bit GPC2 code at 1ms. In a nutshell, comparing a Zen to a Titan Two is like comparing an NES with a PS1. Remind me again how Zen scripts are better than Titan Two  ::)

The Apex Legends Gamepack has weapon-specific antirecoil, as do most other Titan Two scripts from the last few years. "Configure yourself" means to use the Gamepack menu to activate the mods you want to use, just like on Cronus Zen. The entire purpose of Computer Vision on Titan Two is to remove the manual selection requirement by recognising a weapon model to automatically adjust settings to the weapon in hand. Titan Two supports potentially hundreds of weapon-specific settings with no menus or screens required. Cronus Zen does not.

Since the launch of T2 in 2017, the ConsoleTuner community has created their own Modpacks using sophisticated Interactive Configurators within GPC2 that are far more functional that Cronus Gamepack menus (slider, dial, radiobox, checkbox, spinbox, combobox, decimal support, copy & paste preconfigured arrays etc). We use ICs to populate menus with different Primary, Secondary, Tertiary etc weapons, each with their own rapidfire, antirecoil etc values.

Users can access Interactive Configurator menus via Gtuner IV to configure Gamepacks & Modpacks in a Titan Two Memory Slot, or run them within Gtuner IV for on-the-fly configuration, or use Gtuner Air for mobile configuration, or use button combos to adjust mods while in-game.

It's much faster and easier to select from a menu than to use a tiny LED screen to scroll through options one by one. Titan Two does the same thing as the Zen's LED screen in a more robust way in the Output Panel of Gtuner. Gtuner can also use Text to Speech within GPC2, which doesn't require the use of a screen at all.

It sounds like you haven't seen under the hood of an advanced T2 GPC2 script, which by the way are encoded primarily to prevent code theft by the Cronus community. Their community is larger than ConsoleTuner's, so it can pump out more scripts. But it's built upon deception, toxicity & heavy-handed censorship that starts with the Moderators and filters through to the Members, so I'll never be a part of that sh!tshow.

In my experience, the best scripters are on Titan Two. ConsoleTuner community coders like bonefisher, Scachi, Mad, DontAtMe, USER101, AlanMcGregor and myself, if I'm being immodest, and more (apologies for missing any shoutouts) are the source of the better code you'll find floating around in Cronus scripts. This is not by intent, it's because they were willing to share their code with the ConsoleTuner community and the code found its way onto the Cronus forums.

Code theft from Cronus scripters without any attribution to its creator (which is copyright infringement) is why most T2 scripts are encoded as GBC. It's also why I stopped sharing my own scripts - having something stolen from you and passed off as someone else's work isn't pleasant and it's a pillar the Cronus community is built upon. Unfortunately, that goes both ways with CM script conversion to T2, but it's tit-for-tat. That's not to say you won't find good people coding on Zen because you will, but the source of the better code is, for the most part, due to the ConsoleTuner community and developer.

If you see it on a Cronus, it's because it existed on a Titan first, with rare exception e.g. USB hub support on Cronus devices does not exist on Titan devices (by choice). Dig into Cronus' history and you'll find that much of the CronusMAX PLUS software and firmware functionality was "reverse-engineered" from a Titan One. This is not speculation or misinformation, it was revealed in a public court case when Cronus failed to sue for ownership of Titan One.

Though J2K invented the Cronus device, joint-ownership of the Cronus intellectual property was ruled by the court. If there was any justice in the US legal system, Cronus would have been wiped from the face of the Earth, but J2K didn't have the funds to fight it and accepted the decision.

That outcome prompted the creation of Titan Two and GPC2 to distance J2K from Cronus and prevent a repeat episode. It also stalled the development of CronusMAX PLUS (that's why Titan One has features CronusMAX PLUS does not) and forced the creation of Zen (built upon the foundations of J2K's Gamepad Proxy / Cronus device).

Dubious history aside, the argument for which device is "best" can be measured objectively using things like technical specifications and functionality. On that basis, Titan Two beats Cronus Zen in every respect. But, the decision to use a Zen or a Titan Two is entirely subjective as both devices do similar things at different price points.

Titan Two is faster and more capable with better joystick, mouse, keyboard etc, XIM APEX & console support, but it's also more expensive. Zen is cheaper, slower and less capable, but may be an easier entry point for noobs who want their hands held and don't need the power or precision a Titan Two provides. Choose your poison. If you have a moral compass or care about product capabilities over marketing BS, that choice is easy.
« Last Edit: 05:25 AM - 09/01/20 by antithesis »

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Offline year0

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #43 on: 07:16 PM - 08/31/20 »
The Cronus lot couldnít get their own forum working, and have actually posted a long rant on their website like a bunch of teenagers on facebook.

The Titan lot need to get their @#$% together as posting an incomplete list of command words in an online wiki you canít even download a PDF of is fairly useless. Thereís a forum with a decent amount of code examples but 2/3 of it are for GPC, and thereís a bit of a lack of how to video. To be fair the main guy, drumjoke, is really active. Their software to configure/program the titan itself is really good tho, the only downside its iteration I said already.

I donít know what happened in the past to cause a big rift, but weíre talking about gamers AND programmers so it would have been a big blowout. Maybe something to do with Voyager vs DS9 :) anyway, Iíve got the feeling that the rift has ended up causing what feels like a siege mentality. I guess it wouldnít be the first time business partners had problems

None of this applies to mr antithesis tho, cos heís been known to pop up there.

My honest opinion is that there isnít the scope  for the amount of things possible with the hardware, by that I mean you can only do so much. Recoil and rapid fire only go so far, and itís not anyoneís fault, itís how it is.
I canít think why they went with the custom c code theyíve got but maybe it was back before pytho, tho,  which is a bit slower But I havenít built a language before so I could be wrong, but you could do it with an arduino..


Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Offline antithesis

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Re: Titan Two vs Cronus Zen vs XIM
« Reply #44 on: 07:56 PM - 08/31/20 »
Computer Vision runs on Python. GPC dates back to at least 2010 (allow for at least a year for Gamepad Proxy development), so you can see why it has its limitations. As a subset of C, GPC is written to be accessible to non-coders, but has limited functionality as a result.

GPC2 addressed that in its 32-bit implementation, but you're right, there's only so much we can do with emulated controller input. Much of GPC2's functionality is underutilised and will remain so without a solid knowledge of C programming. That said, the stuff J2Kbr and good coders like bonefisher, Scachi, Mad and DontAtMe write for T2 is mind-blowing. I go alright and make some decent scripts, but I'm a dirty hack by comparison.

ConsoleTuner's biggest issue is a lack of marketing expertise to boil a complex product down to its simplest components. As a result, Titan Two can be intimidating to new users because of the scope of what the device can do and they can get lost in Gtuner IV's interface. That's why J2K teamed up to create Cronus in the first place to sell his device. Cronus excels at marketing and have made Zen a simple, easy to use device, albeit with a butt-ugly, limited and confusing Zen Studio app. At least the drag and drop Gamepacks make sense  :o

For some, near enough is good enough, but I care about tools doing the job they're designed to do, hence why I tossed my lot in with ConsoleTuner. Zen failed to meet even my basic requirements for m/kb, speed and performance, despite the marketing material claims. If I have to explain that, look up ^.

That and J2K is both a scholar and a gentleman, much like OBsIV. I don't hold MAX-Admin or his cronies at Cronus in the same lofty company.
« Last Edit: 05:29 AM - 09/01/20 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts