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To XIM Developers: If 1000hz is so good, why don't Microsoft use it on the Elite  (Read 1024 times)

Offline theactualstevie

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Apart from just forcing a USB controller to communicate at 1000hz, there must be many other things to consider right?

We aren't gaming on PC's with thousands of configurations, we are gaming on a closed off platform which set input devices. Game developers make their games for the console with these set parameters in mind, and don't have to consider that some people may be using 125hz, 250hz, 500hz and 1000hz mice.

For Xbox, this polling rate is 125hz on every controller. The game, xbox operating system and the console hardware are all expecting to receive input updates at 125hz. Still maybe they can support 1000hz?

But if if was that easy, why haven't Microsoft made their Elite controller 1000hz? - If it was literally as simple as just changing the polling rate of the controller to 1000hz for improved performance, they would have done it... Imagine the resources Microsoft have to test and also the fact they designed this system too.

Gamers love specs, and importantly reducing input lag. Microsoft could have easily made their elite controller 1000hz to boost sales massively, but they don't..

XIM have done the same thing with the Apex so we can see that this works, how many people bought an Apex even though they had XIM4, with the reason being 1000hz.

There has to be some massive negative to forcing 1000hz and all these "sync" settings and use of smoothing are just workarounds to make 1000hz usable, while making input more filtered and less raw.

Offline antithesis

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The answer might be as simple as battery life. The consoles will accept 1000Hz, but does that really matter when console games are running at 60FPS? Ergo, Sync  ;)

Sync provides the benefit of up to 1000Hz input for smoother tracking (but may introduce jitter, depending on our gear and environment), with the output optionally filtered down to meet console expectations via Sync.

125Hz is only polling twice per frame, there is a noticeable benefit at even double that. I played at 250Hz for over a year during the alpha and it was significantly better on PS4, which expects 250Hz (I believe DualShock 4 polls at 4ms). I swapped to 1000Hz when Titan Two added full support for XIM Apex Response Rate and mouse tracking was again noticeably improved.

I don't use any Smoothing at all, but I prefer 500Hz Response Rate to avoid the potential for jitter. I don't see a great deal of difference between 1000Hz and 500Hz, the only tangible benefit of 1000Hz being better aim assist cut-through in games with janky bubbles like Call of Duty. If you use a kb, you probably won't notice that much as the kb neutralises rotational AA, but swap to analog controls and you'll feel it immediately.

Aside from potential jitter (which is largely environmental), the only notable negative of 1000Hz is microphone distortion on Xbox One controller-connected headsets (it's an issue on Titan Two too) and some XB1 games can feel laggy while chatting. 500Hz or lower will reduce the negative effect. Audio compatibility mode in XB1 game configs forces the output to 125Hz, but I'd recommend trying 500Hz first.

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Offline theactualstevie

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The answer might be as simple as battery life. The consoles will accept 1000Hz, but does that really matter when console games are running at 60FPS? Ergo, Sync  ;)

Sync provides the benefit of up to 1000Hz input for smoother tracking (but may introduce jitter, depending on our gear and environment), with the output optionally filtered down to meet console expectations via Sync.

125Hz is only polling twice per frame, there is a noticeable benefit at even double that. I played at 250Hz for over a year during the alpha and it was significantly better on PS4, which expects 250Hz (I believe DualShock 4 polls at 4ms). I swapped to 1000Hz when Titan Two added full support for XIM Apex Response Rate and mouse tracking was again noticeably improved.

I don't use any Smoothing at all, but I prefer 500Hz Response Rate to avoid the potential for jitter. I don't see a great deal of difference between 1000Hz and 500Hz, the only tangible benefit of 1000Hz being better aim assist cut-through in games with janky bubbles like Call of Duty. If you use a kb, you probably won't notice that much as the kb neutralises rotational AA, but swap to analog controls and you'll feel it immediately.

Aside from potential jitter (which is largely environmental), the only notable negative of 1000Hz is microphone distortion on Xbox One controller-connected headsets (it's an issue on Titan Two too) and some XB1 games can feel laggy while chatting. 500Hz or lower will reduce the negative effect. Audio compatibility mode in XB1 game configs forces the output to 125Hz, but I'd recommend trying 500Hz first.


You're right, it doesn't really matter if you use 1000hz if games are running at 60 or 30fps really, not to mention they are using vsync, which further adds even more frames of delay into the equation.

But isn't this is the advantage of 1000hz, less input lag and, if you have a high refresh rate display and FPS, visibly smoother on screen movement?

Setting your sync at anything apart from "off", is eliminating the advantages of having a high polling rate between your mouse and XIM though right? Is that what you are saying? Or is there a any other benefit?

So basically anyone using 1000hz in their XIM expert config, with sync at common is effectively just using 60hz? Even less than the XIM4?

Offline OBsIV

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Offline theactualstevie

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I was thinking then why doesn't the controller use 125hz on wireless, and 1000hz when you connect the USB.

But I guess the reason for this could be that MIcrosoft don't want wireless controller users to be at a disadvantage?

Offline OBsIV

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That would be a big reason as to why I wouldn't do it -- consistency of feel between modes.
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Offline slickrick

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The answer might be as simple as battery life. The consoles will accept 1000Hz, but does that really matter when console games are running at 60FPS? Ergo, Sync  ;)

Sync provides the benefit of up to 1000Hz input for smoother tracking (but may introduce jitter, depending on our gear and environment), with the output optionally filtered down to meet console expectations via Sync.

125Hz is only polling twice per frame, there is a noticeable benefit at even double that. I played at 250Hz for over a year during the alpha and it was significantly better on PS4, which expects 250Hz (I believe DualShock 4 polls at 4ms). I swapped to 1000Hz when Titan Two added full support for XIM Apex Response Rate and mouse tracking was again noticeably improved.

I don't use any Smoothing at all, but I prefer 500Hz Response Rate to avoid the potential for jitter. I don't see a great deal of difference between 1000Hz and 500Hz, the only tangible benefit of 1000Hz being better aim assist cut-through in games with janky bubbles like Call of Duty. If you use a kb, you probably won't notice that much as the kb neutralises rotational AA, but swap to analog controls and you'll feel it immediately.

Aside from potential jitter (which is largely environmental), the only notable negative of 1000Hz is microphone distortion on Xbox One controller-connected headsets (it's an issue on Titan Two too) and some XB1 games can feel laggy while chatting. 500Hz or lower will reduce the negative effect. Audio compatibility mode in XB1 game configs forces the output to 125Hz, but I'd recommend trying 500Hz first.
        tks for the input.  Ive got a question, are you saying that if I have my mouse and apex set to 1000 polling and I have audio compatibility checked its polling at 125hz?

Offline idkwtf

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The answer might be as simple as battery life. The consoles will accept 1000Hz, but does that really matter when console games are running at 60FPS? Ergo, Sync  ;)

Sync provides the benefit of up to 1000Hz input for smoother tracking (but may introduce jitter, depending on our gear and environment), with the output optionally filtered down to meet console expectations via Sync.

125Hz is only polling twice per frame, there is a noticeable benefit at even double that. I played at 250Hz for over a year during the alpha and it was significantly better on PS4, which expects 250Hz (I believe DualShock 4 polls at 4ms). I swapped to 1000Hz when Titan Two added full support for XIM Apex Response Rate and mouse tracking was again noticeably improved.

I don't use any Smoothing at all, but I prefer 500Hz Response Rate to avoid the potential for jitter. I don't see a great deal of difference between 1000Hz and 500Hz, the only tangible benefit of 1000Hz being better aim assist cut-through in games with janky bubbles like Call of Duty. If you use a kb, you probably won't notice that much as the kb neutralises rotational AA, but swap to analog controls and you'll feel it immediately.

Aside from potential jitter (which is largely environmental), the only notable negative of 1000Hz is microphone distortion on Xbox One controller-connected headsets (it's an issue on Titan Two too) and some XB1 games can feel laggy while chatting. 500Hz or lower will reduce the negative effect. Audio compatibility mode in XB1 game configs forces the output to 125Hz, but I'd recommend trying 500Hz first.


You're right, it doesn't really matter if you use 1000hz if games are running at 60 or 30fps really, not to mention they are using vsync, which further adds even more frames of delay into the equation.

But isn't this is the advantage of 1000hz, less input lag and, if you have a high refresh rate display and FPS, visibly smoother on screen movement?

Setting your sync at anything apart from "off", is eliminating the advantages of having a high polling rate between your mouse and XIM though right? Is that what you are saying? Or is there a any other benefit?

So basically anyone using 1000hz in their XIM expert config, with sync at common is effectively just using 60hz? Even less than the XIM4?
Is this true? 1000hz negated by sync refresh rate? Is off sync the only true way to get benefits off 500/1000hz?

Offline antithesis

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tks for the input.  Ive got a question, are you saying that if I have my mouse and apex set to 1000 polling and I have audio compatibility checked its polling at 125hz?
Input to XIM Apex remains at whatever the Response Rate is set. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) output from XIM Apex to the console is 125Hz with Audio Compatibility Mode enabled. So you're still getting 8 x the input vs output, resulting in smoother mouse tracking than if your mouse is set natively to 125Hz.

As an example, let's say the mouse drops an occasional polling tick at 125Hz. This could be due to simply not moving the mouse, then movement isn't registered until another 8ms. The gap between console pings would increase from 8ms to 16ms for that tick.

If the mouse is set to 1000Hz, dropping a tick is only 1ms, so the ping to the console increases from 8ms to 9ms, at worst. But, the lost tick likely means nothing given 8 packets are received to the XIM Apex for every tick to the console, so there are 7 more that can still get through within the 125Hz tickrate, so the polling remains at a rock-steady 8ms instead of spiking to 16ms when ticks are lost.

Does that make sense? Pure theorycrafting on my part, but it sounds about right. Long story short, leave the mouse polling and XIM response rate at whatever feels good.

So basically anyone using 1000hz in their XIM expert config, with sync at common is effectively just using 60hz? Even less than the XIM4?
Is this true? 1000hz negated by sync refresh rate? Is off sync the only true way to get benefits off 500/1000hz?
Possibly, but that's XIM output, not input. You still get the benefit of 1000Hz inbound. Just keep in mind the above scenario. OBsIV has been transparent from the start that Sync > Default is XIM4 polling speed to the console, Common and Slow are slower.

I'd go Sync Off @ 500Hz every time, unless I intentionally wanted more AA by slowing the output and letting the game engine do more work to handle AA. Sync more closely aligns Apex output with expected input from a controller and thus doesn't mess with the look mechanics as much as Sync Off (i.e reducing AA by polling through it). That's why Sync at Default, Common or Slow feels smoother, reduces jitter and AA feels stickier, but there is still a benefit to polling at a higher input rate. A simple test is to set your mouse and Apex to 125Hz polling, muck around with Sync and see how it feels.

Again, total guesswork on my part, I don't honestly know for sure. Another simple test would be to use a Titan Two to monitor XIM Apex throughput to the console. We might find that XIM Apex is still pinging at the full Response Rate rather than the reduced Sync rate. Sync may interpolate mouse input values between one expected tick to the next, thus reducing jitter and the output to the console still goes at the Response Rate. But, T2 itself can't ping any slower than 125Hz, so I don't know if that would affect the result.
« Last Edit: 05:24 PM - 08/01/19 by antithesis »

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Offline Bb4life1991

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tks for the input.  Ive got a question, are you saying that if I have my mouse and apex set to 1000 polling and I have audio compatibility checked its polling at 125hz?
Input to XIM Apex remains at whatever the Response Rate is set. As I understand it (and I could be wrong) output from XIM Apex to the console is 125Hz with Audio Compatibility Mode enabled. So you're still getting 8 x the input vs output, resulting in smoother mouse tracking than if your mouse is set natively to 125Hz.

As an example, let's say the mouse drops an occasional polling tick at 125Hz. This could be due to simply not moving the mouse, then movement isn't registered until another 8ms. The gap between console pings would increase from 8ms to 16ms for that tick.

If the mouse is set to 1000Hz, dropping a tick is only 1ms, so the ping to the console increases from 8ms to 9ms, at worst. But, the lost tick likely means nothing given 8 packets are received to the XIM Apex for every tick to the console, so there are 7 more that can still get through within the 125Hz tickrate, so the polling remains at a rock-steady 8ms instead of spiking to 16ms when ticks are lost.

Does that make sense? Pure theorycrafting on my part, but it sounds about right. Long story short, leave the mouse polling and XIM response rate at whatever feels good.

So basically anyone using 1000hz in their XIM expert config, with sync at common is effectively just using 60hz? Even less than the XIM4?
Is this true? 1000hz negated by sync refresh rate? Is off sync the only true way to get benefits off 500/1000hz?
Possibly, but that's XIM output, not input. You still get the benefit of 1000Hz inbound. Just keep in mind the above scenario. OBsIV has been transparent from the start that Sync > Default is XIM4 polling speed to the console, Common and Slow are slower.

I'd go Sync Off @ 500Hz every time, unless I intentionally wanted more AA by slowing the output and letting the game engine do more work to handle AA. Sync more closely aligns Apex output with expected input from a controller and thus doesn't mess with the look mechanics as much as Sync Off (i.e reducing AA by polling through it). That's why Sync at Default, Common or Slow feels smoother, reduces jitter and AA feels stickier, but there is still a benefit to polling at a higher input rate. A simple test is to set your mouse and Apex to 125Hz polling, muck around with Sync and see how it feels.

Again, total guesswork on my part, I don't honestly know for sure. Another simple test would be to use a Titan Two to monitor XIM Apex throughput to the console. We might find that XIM Apex is still pinging at the full Response Rate rather than the reduced Sync rate. Sync may interpolate mouse input values between one expected tick to the next, thus reducing jitter and the output to the console still goes at the Response Rate. But, T2 itself can't ping any slower than 125Hz, so I don't know if that would affect the result.

woulda been nice if the devs chimed in on all this so we could know these things for sure i definitely like posts like this trying to understand the apex on a more complex level to a degree

Offline AgentSmith

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I am sure the Xbox 360 had different polling rates for wired and wireless controllers, or it certainly had something different within the resolution of the triggers as the difference between them could be easily felt with fine throttle controls in Forza 3 and 4.
I wireless controller would cost me 3 seconds on Nurburgring.

The Xbox One doesn't really have a first party wired controller, it is a wireless that has the ability to use a USB cable.
That is a very crude explanation, but I am sure people will understand the intention.

Offline Frash brang

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Would it be possible to have the xim apex polling rate change for each sub config.

1000hz works well for hip and sprint on destiny 2, cuts through the aim assist bubble.

125hz works better for ads, works better with the aim assist.

I know you have to unplug your xim apex for any changes to polling to reset so the answer is probably no. Just a thought, future development, added functionality.

Offline antithesis

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Would it be possible to have the xim apex polling rate change for each sub config.

1000hz works well for hip and sprint on destiny 2, cuts through the aim assist bubble.

125hz works better for ads, works better with the aim assist.

I know you have to unplug your xim apex for any changes to polling to reset so the answer is probably no. Just a thought, future development, added functionality.
Wouldn't Sync achieve this? It can be set separately for HIP, ADS, AUX etc.

Set your mouse to 1000Hz polling, APEX RR to 1000Hz, Sync Off for HIP (1000Hz) and Sync Default for ADS (120Hz).

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Offline Frash brang

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Im getting confused. So explain to me how synchronisation and xim apex response rate differs or what is the e relationship between them? Why do we have 2 options? Does response rate overwrite or take priority over sync and if so, does setting xim apex response rate to 125hz effectively automatically sets all sync to slow.

God dammit

Offline antithesis

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Im getting confused. So explain to me how synchronisation and xim apex response rate differs or what is the e relationship between them? Why do we have 2 options? Does response rate overwrite or take priority over sync and if so, does setting xim apex response rate to 125hz effectively automatically sets all sync to slow.

God dammit
Think of mouse polling and XIM APEX Response Rate as Input polling, and Sync as Output polling.

XIM4 had a fixed Input and Output polling rate of 125Hz. XIM APEX has configurable Input and Output polling rates of 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz and 1000Hz via Response Rate.

Sync Off passes through the Response Rate at the defined Output polling rate of 125Hz, 250Hz, 500Hz and 1000Hz. So basically, XIM APEX passes through the polling rate from the mouse to the game, which can result in smoother, more precise movement.

However, high Output polling from XIM to the console was found to cause jitter for some users, so Sync was added to dampen the Output polling to "sync" with a game's processing loop, thus reducing jitter, with the added bonus of stickier Aim Assist.

Sync at values other than Off creates additional Output polling rates of 30Hz (Slow), 60Hz (Common) and 120Hz (Default). I can't 100% confirm this as it's XIM secret sauce, but I can't see Sync working any other way, so let's just run with it.

So, you can set your HIP to 1000Hz mouse polling, 1000Hz RR and Sync Off at 1000Hz to get what you want. For ADS, no changes are required for mouse polling or RR given Sync at Default will dial APEX back to 120Hz output for stickier AA. That's close enough to 125Hz.

Try it and let me know if it works. Slow might be worth a shot on ADS too as D2 is a 30FPS game. A touch of Smoothing can also add a little stickiness to AA.
« Last Edit: 06:58 AM - 11/19/19 by antithesis »

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