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Apex legends st needs to be retrained  (Read 5571 times)

Offline WarCat

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #15 on: 11:11 AM - 07/23/19 »
Does Apex Legends feel fine using the latest ST when using 8?

Iíll test that out when I get home in about 4 hours and report back, last time I tried it out I was experiencing polling issues at 1000hz and the GPW, I switched to the G305 now and it seems that those polling issues are gone. That also accounts for some of my discomfort with season 2 as I ran my GPW at 500hz for the entirety of season 1 but the issue with a subpar performance in season 2 is still persisting.

Iíll report back with my findings.

This is a hard issue to nail down, server performance and framerate may be affecting this as well. Some matches feel better than others, where I donít notice the aiming behavior impacts as much. Iíve also seen some posts on Reddit explaining that the US servers were performing poorly compared to the European servers which could explain why some are experiencing these headaches more than others as it may be a minor inconvenience to some while it is a night and day difference to others. Most people used 3200 or 4K DPI and 500hz polling with some added boost or SAB during season 1. Since season 2, Iíve noticed that most have moved to 12K DPI and 1k polling, with more boost or SAB, and still experience these issues.

Offline BenDova

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #16 on: 11:20 AM - 07/23/19 »
We never train any translator with aim assist.
i see but it definitely feels like it, the aim assist is much better with the
TF2 st, no sluggish movements either if you could update the apex st that would perfect man

Online OBsIV

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #17 on: 11:23 AM - 07/23/19 »
This is a hard issue to nail down, server performance and framerate may be affecting this as well. Some matches feel better than others, where I donít notice the aiming behavior impacts as much. Iíve also seen some posts on Reddit explaining that the US servers were performing poorly compared to the European servers which could explain why some are experiencing these headaches more than others as it may be a minor inconvenience to some while it is a night and day difference to others.

It is interesting to see the types of problems people are having over the lifetime of XIM. People report significantly different performance between firmware builds that actually didn't change (only the version number changed for example). I don't remember seeing this much earlier on in the project when all the talk was about COD and BF. When Fortnite and PUBG came on the scene, it was clear it had serious quality problems. By quality problems, I mean issues that cause aiming determinism failures. Apex Legends sounds like this as well. I really don't know what is going on with game studios these days, but, they seem to be ok with shipping low quality stuff.
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Online OBsIV

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #18 on: 11:25 AM - 07/23/19 »
i see but it definitely feels like it, the aim assist is much better with the
TF2 st, no sluggish movements either if you could update the apex st that would perfect man

I'm not sure what we are going to change. WarCat offered to test things on 8, that will help us know where to look next. The last time we looked at this (which wasn't long ago), training done on 7 had the same output as 8. Meaning, the ST was correct for 7.

I'm not sure if people are having problems because of AA, but, again, we never train any game where AA is active.
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Offline BenDova

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #19 on: 11:45 AM - 07/23/19 »
i see but it definitely feels like it, the aim assist is much better with the
TF2 st, no sluggish movements either if you could update the apex st that would perfect man

I'm not sure what we are going to change. WarCat offered to test things on 8, that will help us know where to look next. The last time we looked at this (which wasn't long ago), training done on 7 had the same output as 8. Meaning, the ST was correct for 7.

I'm not sure if people are having problems because of AA, but, again, we never train any game where AA is active.
Right, I heard 8/8 gives no AA and yes the only major issue that i find constantly with apex st is the that the aim assist feels very inconsistent. I played on high velocity and it felt so good only problem was the stuttering and what not because the st was made for default. I think if you make the st work with any response curve then we would have more options to experience and test

Offline WarCat

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #20 on: 11:56 AM - 07/23/19 »
This is a hard issue to nail down, server performance and framerate may be affecting this as well. Some matches feel better than others, where I donít notice the aiming behavior impacts as much. Iíve also seen some posts on Reddit explaining that the US servers were performing poorly compared to the European servers which could explain why some are experiencing these headaches more than others as it may be a minor inconvenience to some while it is a night and day difference to others.

It is interesting to see the types of problems people are having over the lifetime of XIM. People report significantly different performance between firmware builds that actually didn't change (only the version number changed for example). I don't remember seeing this much earlier on in the project when all the talk was about COD and BF. When Fortnite and PUBG came on the scene, it was clear it had serious quality problems. By quality problems, I mean issues that cause aiming determinism failures. Apex Legends sounds like this as well. I really don't know what is going on with game studios these days, but, they seem to be ok with shipping low quality stuff.

Another major variable in this whole issue is the rapid change in the "meta" between season 1 and 2. Popular legend selections pathfinder, wraith, and lifeline were all nerfed to incur a "low-profile" penalty for their small hitbox, where they take 5% additional damage. On top of that, the disruptor hop up, can take out max shield with only 4 bullets, and many are taking advantage of that. It ruins the season 1 meta where you collected as many shield batteries as possible, and during a gunfight you would be able to retreat as necessary, heal shield in 4 seconds with shield battery and get back in the fight. Now, as soon as you get back in the fight, your shield could be gone in only 4 bullets again. If 2 people are running these disruptor rounds, forget it.

So effectively, the skill gap has been lessened due to this, combined with some aiming performance issues, whether it be AA, look mechanic, or a combination of both, leads to a major change in the overall experience.

I believe that AA has definitely increased -- and if that is the only change then so be it, we will have to find our desired config to work around it as the ST would still be working as designed/intended, providing a 1:1 experience minus AA.

The problem with this though, is with increased AA, and the lower skill gap due to these hop up attachments / disruptor rounds, I genuinely feel for the first time that this game would be better played with a controller rather than MnK as my preferred input method as the increased AA is helping the controller users and has not been beneficial for XIM users.

If it is just AA being an issue, I still think that we would benefit from the advanced in game settings being trained on a separate advanced ST, that way our performance isn't being hindered as much by both a low turn speed and less than desirable AA.

I will record some gameplay with each setting to showcase exactly what I am experiencing between advanced settings, 7/7 sensitivity, and 8/8 sensitivity along with a brief write up to further document the process, I believe it will be beneficial to those who watch/read it. I will also include some season 1 footage to have a comparison / baseline before these issues came up.

Offline BenDova

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #21 on: 12:03 PM - 07/23/19 »
This is a hard issue to nail down, server performance and framerate may be affecting this as well. Some matches feel better than others, where I donít notice the aiming behavior impacts as much. Iíve also seen some posts on Reddit explaining that the US servers were performing poorly compared to the European servers which could explain why some are experiencing these headaches more than others as it may be a minor inconvenience to some while it is a night and day difference to others.

It is interesting to see the types of problems people are having over the lifetime of XIM. People report significantly different performance between firmware builds that actually didn't change (only the version number changed for example). I don't remember seeing this much earlier on in the project when all the talk was about COD and BF. When Fortnite and PUBG came on the scene, it was clear it had serious quality problems. By quality problems, I mean issues that cause aiming determinism failures. Apex Legends sounds like this as well. I really don't know what is going on with game studios these days, but, they seem to be ok with shipping low quality stuff.

Another major variable in this whole issue is the rapid change in the "meta" between season 1 and 2. Popular legend selections pathfinder, wraith, and lifeline were all nerfed to incur a "low-profile" penalty for their small hitbox, where they take 5% additional damage. On top of that, the disruptor hop up, can take out max shield with only 4 bullets, and many are taking advantage of that. It ruins the season 1 meta where you collected as many shield batteries as possible, and during a gunfight you would be able to retreat as necessary, heal shield in 4 seconds with shield battery and get back in the fight. Now, as soon as you get back in the fight, your shield could be gone in only 4 bullets again. If 2 people are running these disruptor rounds, forget it.

So effectively, the skill gap has been lessened due to this, combined with some aiming performance issues, whether it be AA, look mechanic, or a combination of both, leads to a major change in the overall experience.

I believe that AA has definitely increased -- and if that is the only change then so be it, we will have to find our desired config to work around it as the ST would still be working as designed/intended, providing a 1:1 experience minus AA.

The problem with this though, is with increased AA, and the lower skill gap due to these hop up attachments / disruptor rounds, I genuinely feel for the first time that this game would be better played with a controller rather than MnK as my preferred input method as the increased AA is helping the controller users and has not been beneficial for XIM users.

If it is just AA being an issue, I still think that we would benefit from the advanced in game settings being trained on a separate advanced ST, that way our performance isn't being hindered as much by both a low turn speed and less than desirable AA.

I will record some gameplay with each setting to showcase exactly what I am experiencing between advanced settings, 7/7 sensitivity, and 8/8 sensitivity along with a brief write up to further document the process, I believe it will be beneficial to those who watch/read it. I will also include some season 1 footage to have a comparison / baseline before these issues came up.
Perfectly said, you read my mind. I think a lot of people notice it too and thatís why we have so many people looking for the magic setting only to not realize that things have changed. The more options the better

Online OBsIV

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #22 on: 02:27 PM - 07/23/19 »
Thanks for the help, WarCat. We are looking forward to your findings.
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Offline Lucifalic

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #23 on: 02:39 PM - 07/23/19 »
I still feel the manner in which you started this tread  was not appropriate. The people in XIM, which is a small company still, work tirelessly to try to give us the best experience. They cannot control everything by any means especially when games certainly change little things about their aim dynamics and the like. Not to mention they work on many different games at the same time and every new game that is coming out. I understand that we deserve some good service as well but I have seen nothing but that since purchasing my xim at the beginning of 2019.  And as the old saying goes youíll catch a lot more flies with Honey rather than vinegar. Know what Iím saying?

Offline darreng

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #24 on: 02:50 PM - 07/23/19 »
Disables config is perfect.

I've lowered it to 500Hz and 10K DPi to get more AA and Im slaying n00bz.

:)

Offline Lucifalic

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #25 on: 02:55 PM - 07/23/19 »
Yea I use disable with a few tweaks of personal preference and itís ALWAYS good unless there is server side lag and frame drop that apex is becoming famous for

Offline WarCat

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #26 on: 09:20 PM - 07/23/19 »
Glad I copied and pasted this to a word doc before submitting! My login timed out..  :-\  :)

I've completed some testing, if you would like to view the results first hand, visit the link below. I have included timestamps if you do not feel like watching the whole thing, we are all busy! This took about 2 hours to capture the game play, 1 hour to export / upload from ps4, download from YouTube, and another 3 hours to piece together the video and edit for a total of 6 hours, I hope this is helpful to those who take the time to watch the video and read this.

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3-5DUYV81w

I'll preface this by saying, I do not have the best aim in the world, do not expect me to beam people like Dizzy or Shroud... also, I am not asking for subscriptions or anything like that. I do not upload regularly and that is not what this video is for.

I'll go in order of events in the video

#1 (10 seconds to 3:45) Gameplay from season 1 using Wingman and Longbow.

I included this footage because I wanted to explain what settings I was using and showcase what the meta was for me at the time. Longbow being overpowered, wingman still being a high risk high reward weapon. In order to use these weapons effectively, you need to be able to enter and exit the hitbox without aim assist causing issues, otherwise it will take you too long to line up your shots and you'll find yourself looking for your next match. As you will see from the footage, I did not have an issue doing this in season 1 with 7/7 in game sens, 3200 DPI, 500hz polling, and 150 SAB on ADS only (D1sable's recommended settings)

#2 (3:45 to 9:30) Gameplay from season 1 using r301 and r99

I had a rough start! You will see my inaccuracies initially. This was my first match of the day and I wasn't ready for my teammates to die and to take on multiple squads at once. It gets better as I get warmed up. I included this video because I wanted to showcase the tracking ability within season 1, using the r301 and r99. These two weapons are great baselines as the r301 is low recoil but requires good accuracy and tracking. The r99 is higher recoil, fast fire rate, and also requires good accuracy and tracking. (glad my aim improved as I got warmed up..)

All footage shown from this point forward was captured today via PlayStation Share

#3 (9:30 to 10:15) Gameplay from season 2 using various weapons.

Alternator / Spitfire for the first clip I made this short and sweet because I died a painful death due to my daring attempt to rescue my team, they should have taken my zipline that I pinged for them. Showcases some aiming issues, hip fire is much better for me than ADS with these settings, 12k DPI, 1k polling, 200 SAB, 20 boost.

#4 (10:15 to 12:28) Continuation of #3 with the same settings, this is the following match.

I used the r99/alternator and the r301/alternator with disruptor rounds combo. this clip shows some of the issues I was having with tracking and staying on target.

#5 (12:30 to 12:42) Short explanation for my experience with 8/8 in game sensitivity and some firing range footage.

#6 (12:42 to 17:37) Highlights from match using advanced look controls rather than 7/7 sensitivity.
I had no issues entering the hitbox with this config, nor did I have issues staying on target, reminded me very much of the season 1 feeling, with an increased turn speed as an additional benefit.

My final conclusion:

The meta:

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the meta has changed pretty drastically with the nerf of primary legends / mains via the new low-profile nerf, adding 5% more damage to these legends. Disruptor / Hammerpoint hop ups do major damage to shielded enemies (Disruptor) and un-shielded enemies, (HammerPoint). This has lowered the TTK and lessened the skill gap, now you have to play even smarter if you want to get your wins.

The increase in storm/ring damage, along with the increase in speed that it closes, has people looking for less loot, and accepting that 3rd partying is the best way to fulfill their loot goblin tendencies. Have an exit strategy and use good positioning. The matches are also shorter.

The Aim Assist:

The aim assist is nowhere near as kind as it was during season 1. You will have to compensate for this with higher DPI, SAB, Boost, Stead Aim, or Ballistic Curves. I saw that RML released a new curve today, and from what I can tell, he is very excited about it. I will be taking a look at how it interacts with Apex Legend's AA.

I wish Respawn would have mentioned this change in their patch notes, but we don't know if it was intentional or not. They did remove a lot of source code that was related to Titanfall, perhaps that is why the behavior changed.

Also, I played solo today and did not experience any major stuttering and/or framerate issues or screen tearing, nor did I encounter any enemies who had excessive lag/rubber band issues. Everything was smooth, so I cannot say for sure how this will impact my configurations but I have noticed that with the regular 7/7 in game settings, my issues are much more noticeable, while the advanced settings seem to be more resilient to these negative effects.

The look mechanic:

After testing, I don't believe that there has been any change to the look mechanic. My previous suspicions were proven to be false today. I think that much of my prior testing was corrupted by the GPW inconsistent polling issues at 1,000 hz. There is a thread about it here on the forums where many have reported the same issue. If you are using a GPW and 1,000 hz, I would recommend that you try another mouse to see if the impact of the Aim Assist change is lessened.

I tested my CM/360 to the width of my mousepad on both 7/7 and 8/8 in the firing range and in game. There was no difference, other than 7/7 offering aim assist while 8/8 does not. I did not notice any deadzone changes, acceleration issues, deceleration issues, etc. I did notice that while using 8/8 instead of 7/7 in game that my issue with tracking was gone in the instances where my tracking was on point. This confirms for me, that my config with 7/7 does have issues entering in and out of the hitbox. This does NOT indicate any change in the look mechanic for me.

Advanced Settings
For me, advanced settings have been the most reliable for me with this changed aim assist behavior. The aim assist is helpful but not intrusive and I haven't had a single experience where I felt like aim assist was repelling my mouse movements or "getting stuck", I can move in and out of the hitbox with ease. This will benefit those who have not heavily relied on aim assist and gamble whether or not it will work in their favor.

My recommendations:

To the community, try out some of these advanced settings in the Shared Configs section in the forum. *Note* I have not had any luck using Generic Alpha & a ballistic curve or boost on PS4. I am using the official Apex Legends ST. Try both options out for yourself and see what works best for you. I will be releasing my settings after some more testing and tweaking if necessary, I hope they can help others to have a positive experience.

To the XIM team, I appreciate your hard work in providing this experience, I understand that the ST cannot take aim assist in to account, that the purpose is to provide a 1:1 experience. My testing cannot be as precise nor compare to what an official ST would be like with advanced look controls being trained, but I do believe that it would offer a better experience with Aim Assist and a better turn speed.

I have suggested on both Reddit and the EA forums that the advanced look controls include numbers rather than sliders, or a combination of both, but I have not received any developer response and I don't assume that I will.

I also understand the hesitation to include confusing instructions or add a separate ST unless it is absolutely necessary, but I do think this would help a lot of people.
As an alternative, could the app be altered to include a tickbox such as "display alternate/expert ST" default being off, which would allow those who have it enabled to choose which ST works best for them? I think this could solve the desire of those on Apex Legends and Rainbow Six Siege.
 
Sorry if I rambled a bit in this post, its been about 7 hours now. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Offline neumann

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #27 on: 02:26 AM - 07/24/19 »
I tried BenDova's settings and can confirm the AA is so much better with TF2.

Offline ceebs

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #28 on: 03:37 AM - 07/24/19 »
I've completed some testing...
I, personally, have never noticed a change to the look mechanic in AL that many XIMmers are claiming, so I was keen to see what results your analysis would have. Maybe now, the complainers will start looking at their own set-ups for reasons that their settings feel different, rather than blaming the game's coding and XIM Tech's claims that nothing has changed.

Thanks for putting in the time and effort Warcat.

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Offline WarCat

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Re: Apex legends st needs to be retrained
« Reply #29 on: 06:32 AM - 07/24/19 »
No problem! Wasnít expecting it to take so long but I wanted to be as thorough as I could. To sum it up in a single phrase, forget about season 1 and imagine that season 2 is a new game that that was just released, along with the ST. We need to do what we always do in this case, tweak our configs as best as we can to work with AA.


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