XIM Community

Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4  (Read 12371 times)

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« on: 01:40 AM - 10/30/18 »
I've been testing Xim4 on SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4 today and have some very interesting observations.

Xim4 settings - BO4 ST, 125Hz Response Rate (not configurable), 1000Hz Polling Rate, 12K DPI, HIP 8, ADS 5, Steady Aim on, Boost 84. No curves.

Apex settings - BO4 ST, 500Hz Response Rate, 1000Hz Polling Rate, 12K DPI, HIP 8, ADS 5. Sync Default. No curves.

VAPR with High Cal, Rapid Fire and Suppressor. Engineer, Gung Ho, Dead Silence. Acoustic Sensor.

Results
1. SA3 - aim & movement feels smooth with clean cut-through into the hitbox. Overall, SA3 provided a trouble-free experience that rewards good aim, but AA feels weak.

2. Apex - aim & movement feels smooth, AA is like a gravity well and sticks like baby poo to a blanket. Overall, Apex works great with AA, as long as you can break through the AA bubble to get into the hitbox.

The results were not even close - want less AA? Use Xim4 SA3. Want more AA? Use Apex.

I played equally well on both - adjusting aim into the hitbox was easier on SA3, but AA is magnetic on Apex. I preferred hitbox entry on SA3, but pulled a higher killstreak on Apex, so it boils down to user preference.

I don't know what the difference is under the hood to make the two firmwares feel so different, but I'll play around to see if I can get Apex feeling closer to SA3. Adjusting RR, changing Sync, increasing ADS sensitivity and a Ballistics Curve should help, but vanilla SA3 felt spot-on from the outset.


=========================================

Summary
Here's the TLDR version of the test results posted in the thread.

Final Apex Settings
BO4 ST, Apex & mouse at 1000Hz, 12K DPI, HIP 50, ADS 40. Sync Off, Smoothing 0, Gradual curve.

Gradual Curve
Code: [Select]
>>> XIM APEX [Translate Ballistics] START COPY >>>
X5BC:gGSAyIJYgliD6IPohXiFeIcIhwiJYAlgiWCLuAu4i7iOEA4QjhCRMBEwETCRMJRQFFAUUJRQl3AXcBdwl3CbWBtYG1gbWJtYn0AfQB9AH0CfQKPwI/Aj8CPwI/Cj8KcQJxAnECcQ:X5BC
<<< XIM APEX END COPY <<<

Granular Curve
Code: [Select]
>>> XIM APEX [Translate Ballistics] START COPY >>>
X5BC:gACAyIJYgliEsASwhLCH0AfQB9CH0Iu4C7gLuAu4i7iQaBBoEGgQaBBokGiV4BXgFeAV4BXgFeCV4JwgHCAcIBwgHCAcIBwgnCCjKCMoIygjKCMoIygjKCMooyinECcQJxAnECcQ:X5BC
<<< XIM APEX END COPY <<<

Notes
Sync Off had much more impact on AA cut-through than DPI, so use whatever DPI works for you.

Sync Off uses Apex's Response Rate rather than attempting to sync with a game's processing loop. This tends to have a dampening effect on AA, which is needed in BO4. Both 500 & 1000Hz RR worked well.

OBsIV's quantization curves reduce the AA bubble, similar to the SA3 Xim4 experimental FW build. The curves posted above are dynamite, the gold nugget of this thread.

Smoothing at 0 or 20 felt roughly the same (I expected a lot of floatiness at 20), so I didn't test extensively. If you get jitter at 1000Hz, either decrease Response Rate to 500Hz, or increase Smoothing.

Conclusion
If you still have a Xim4, use SA3 for BO4. AA behaviour is very clean and SA3 works well on vanilla settings. Just know you're getting less AA than an Apex.

BO4 AA is obscenely strong on Apex, which more closely equates to a controller experience. However, the AA bubble is troublesome at mid to long range and can act as a repellent. Combining Sync Off with OBsIV's SA3-like Ballistics Curves cleans up AA issues at all ranges.

Preference
I wanted both strong AA and easy hitbox entry, I can only get that on Apex. I'll be sticking to the Apex with the settings posted above.
« Last Edit: 06:10 AM - 11/11/18 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #1 on: 02:07 AM - 10/30/18 »
Test 2 - Apex at 500Hz RR, 12K DPI, HIP 32, ADS 20. Sync Off. No Curve.

AA felt strong and sticky, but without the tracking and hitbox entry problems of Sync Default. Much nicer, Apex felt like it was working with AA rather than against it.

Interestingly, 800 DPI and 12K DPI felt similar for AA, which to be fair is obscenely high in BO4. Sync made a far more obvious difference.

I'll try again at 125HZ and 1000Hz RR. Once I nail down the RR, I'll play with Smoothing.

TLDR - AA is much stronger on Apex than Xim4 on SA3, if AA's your thing.
« Last Edit: 02:49 AM - 10/30/18 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline ceebs

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 1835
    • View Profile
  • PSN ID: Captain_Minxley
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #2 on: 03:22 AM - 10/30/18 »
Test 2 - Apex at 500Hz RR, 12K DPI, HIP 32, ADS 20. Sync Off. No Curve.

AA felt strong and sticky, but without the tracking and hitbox entry problems of Sync Default. Much nicer, Apex felt like it was working with AA rather than against it.

Interestingly, 800 DPI and 12K DPI felt similar for AA, which to be fair is obscenely high in BO4. Sync made a far more obvious difference.

I'll try again at 125HZ and 1000Hz RR. Once I nail down the RR, I'll play with Smoothing.

TLDR - AA is much stronger on Apex than Xim4 on SA3, if AA's your thing.
I too got much better results with AA with Sync - Off. AA is still sticky but the reticle moves smoothly into the hitbox.

There's noticeable difficulty breaking into the AA bubble with Sync - Common and it's also more difficult to keep it in there at medium-long range.

Where's HL3?

XIM Apex, PS4 Pro with 1TB Crucial MX500, Allreli T9+, Swiftpoint Z, Aorus AMP500, Audio Technica ADG1X, SB X7, LG 27UD58.

MSI Z97i Gaming AC, Core i5 4690k, Corsair H100i, RTX 2070, 16GB Corsair Vengence DDR3, XFX ProSeries 750w, 3xAerocool Dead Silence, Cooltek W1, 2x500GB Samsung Evo SSDs, 1TB Crucial MX500 SSD, 1TB WD HDD, Silverstone SST slot-load DVD, KustomPC braided cables. And if you've read this far, you too are a genuine geek, my friend!

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #3 on: 03:30 AM - 10/30/18 »
There's noticeable difficulty breaking into the AA bubble with Sync - Common and it's also more difficult to keep it in there at medium-long range.
Yup. Sync Off "fixed" AA for me, it felt both overwhelmingly strong and repellent at other Sync settings.

I liked Apex with Sync Off better than SA3 on Xim4 for AA. Controller users get to abuse it, so it's only fair that I do the same ;)

Dampening the AA bubble either via SA3 or Sync Off has completely changed my playstyle. I can now confidently jump around like a Jack Russell fcuking Terrier knowing that AA is more friend than foe.

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline PUBzZz

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 742
    • View Profile
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #4 on: 06:41 AM - 10/30/18 »
I was testing Sync Common vs Sync Off.  I feel once you figure out your smoothing with Sync Off the results of using Sync Off are better.

Then I took it a step further.  Some say the BO3 ST is still better than the BO4 ST.  So Sunday and Monday I been going back and fourth between the two.   I actually think I like BO3 ST with Sync Off better than the BO4 ST with Sync Off. It's close but I think there is something there with the BO3 ST.

Oddly I felt using the BO3 ST with Common Sync AA felt real sticky but not in a good way.  Where as Common with the BO4 ST feels good and works with AA.
PS4 / Xbox One
Xim Apex / Xim 4
Cooler Master MM710 16k @1000hz
Zowie G-TF SPAWN PAD
Netduma to OpenWRT "Cake/PieceOfCake"
BenQ XL2420T
Astro A40 + Mixamp

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #5 on: 06:57 AM - 10/30/18 »
Test 3 - Apex at 1000Hz RR, 12K DPI, HIP 64, ADS 40. Sync Off. No curve.

AA was sticky, tracked targets automatically and breaking into the hitbox was easy.

I'm testing the VAPR at short to mid-range, which is traditionally a range I avoid in favour of mid to long because tracking targets in close quarters is typically harder on a Xim. I'm starting to see where the CoD god complexes on this forum come from.

I don't think I'll bother testing 125Hz on Apex, it feels solid as is and has mitigated the AA issues I had when using low DPI, 500Hz RR and Sync > Default or Common. The biggest factor is Sync, by a country mile.

The short review is this -

Xim4 SA3 feels great out-of-the-box, offering subtle AA with easy cut-through into the hitbox with all weapons, at all ranges.

Xim Apex takes a little tweaking (Sync Off and 1000Hz RR), but produces ridiculous AA that's both sticky and easy to cut-through into the hitbox at short to mid range. However, it does retain the AA bubble that SA3 resolves, depending on the weapon and range (ICR wasn't as pleasant as VAPR).

Choose your poison, but I don't buy into SA3 being the ultimate Xim firmware build. It does feel good, as long as you want less AA. Apex feels better if you want strong AA and likely more accurately represents a controller experience in BO4.
« Last Edit: 10:40 PM - 10/30/18 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline The prodigy

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 600
    • View Profile
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #6 on: 03:43 PM - 10/30/18 »
Very good info and i'm also very surprised by your findings.
Can you confirm you had steady aim enabled on sa3 for both hip and ads?
I really don't understand how there would be less aim assist on sa3 than off sync apex which has almost no amount of aa from my experience. Mindblowing..


Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #7 on: 04:07 PM - 10/30/18 »
Very good info and i'm also very surprised by your findings.
Can you confirm you had steady aim enabled on sa3 for both hip and ads?
I really don't understand how there would be less aim assist on sa3 than off sync apex which has almost no amount of aa from my experience. Mindblowing..
Yep, SA on for both HIP and ADS.

I'm using the latest beta FW for Apex, I need to retest using the gold build.

For clarity, I stuck to testing ARs in MP where AA is very noticeable.

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline TehSubXero

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 311
    • View Profile
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #8 on: 04:13 PM - 10/30/18 »
I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is how fast you can turn your screen.  If you 'can't break the bubble', your sens is too low.  If you 'don't have any aim assist', it's too high.  Nobody belongs anywhere, nobody exists on purpose, everybody's going to die.

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #9 on: 04:19 PM - 10/30/18 »
I'm pretty sure the only thing that matters is how fast you can turn your screen.  If you 'can't break the bubble', your sens is too low.  If you 'don't have any aim assist', it's too high.  Nobody belongs anywhere, nobody exists on purpose, everybody's going to die.
It's not that simple, you really need to try this.

I already tested for higher sens, YX ratio, DPI and curves. None of them had the impact of either Sync at Off, or SA3 on Xim4.

SA3 vs Apex beta FW was a totally different gaming experience. Same basic settings and sensitivity on both devices, completely different AA. Everything else felt the same (turn speed, movement, aim etc).

On Apex, Sync settings make an obvious difference to AA behaviour, most notably cut-through and a duller AA bubble at Off. All other settings are equal.

I also need to dig up the quantized ballistics curve OBsIV created to test this stuff in Overwatch.
« Last Edit: 04:58 PM - 10/30/18 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline Biggage

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 954
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Channel
  • Gamertag: Atmo nS
  • PSN ID: Atmo_nS
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #10 on: 04:57 PM - 10/30/18 »
Dammit you're making me want to get my XIM4 out. I've seen all the talk about SA3 on XIM4 being very good, but didn't put much merit in it. I know you're saying Apex with Sync off is the same or similar but now I have to see for myself. I have to see if I even have SA3 firmware installed on my XIM4 still and I have to re-download SandhawC.

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #11 on: 05:03 PM - 10/30/18 »
Dammit you're making me want to get my XIM4 out. I've seen all the talk about SA3 on XIM4 being very good, but didn't put much merit in it. I know you're saying Apex with Sync off is the same or similar but now I have to see for myself. I have to see if I even have SA3 firmware installed on my XIM4 still and I have to re-download SandhawC.
Apex with Sync Off is not at all like SA3.

SA3 has notably less AA than any setting on Apex. Sync Off has better AA behaviour than other Sync. Apex AA is much stronger than SA3. SA3 worked really well with no tweaking. Apex requires some fine-tuning. Both felt good, but in different ways.

In short -

SA3 = less AA
Apex = more AA

I'm going to test the quantized curve (similar input behaviour to SA3) on both beta and gold Apex firmwares shortly.
« Last Edit: 05:10 PM - 10/30/18 by antithesis »

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline Biggage

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 954
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Channel
  • Gamertag: Atmo nS
  • PSN ID: Atmo_nS
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #12 on: 05:09 PM - 10/30/18 »
Look forward to your feedback.

The reason I'm looking into SA3 based on your testing is because I have been wanting less AA than Sync Off provides but I still want some. Which it sounds like you felt on SA3. So I have to try it, just have to refresh myself on SandhawC and hope I can get that to work right again. As well as double check my XIM4 firmware. I have the downloads saved somewhere.

Offline antithesis

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 9986
    • View Profile
    • Mod Squad
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #13 on: 05:12 PM - 10/30/18 »
Here's the two curves from OBsIV that I'll be testing -

Gradual -

Code: [Select]
>>> XIM APEX [Translate Ballistics] START COPY >>>
X5BC:gGSAyIJYgliD6IPohXiFeIcIhwiJYAlgiWCLuAu4i7iOEA4QjhCRMBEwETCRMJRQFFAUUJRQl3AXcBdwl3CbWBtYG1gbWJtYn0AfQB9AH0CfQKPwI/Aj8CPwI/Cj8KcQJxAnECcQ:X5BC
<<< XIM APEX END COPY <<<

Granular -

Code: [Select]
>>> XIM APEX [Translate Ballistics] START COPY >>>
X5BC:gACAyIJYgliEsASwhLCH0AfQB9CH0Iu4C7gLuAu4i7iQaBBoEGgQaBBokGiV4BXgFeAV4BXgFeCV4JwgHCAcIBwgHCAcIBwgnCCjKCMoIygjKCMoIygjKCMooyinECcQJxAnECcQ:X5BC
<<< XIM APEX END COPY <<<

In theory, that should provide an SA3-like experience on Apex. We shall see...

All SA firmwares are located here - https://community.xim.tech/index.php?topic=51992.0


Note that Boost in SA FW = SA intensity.

Official Australian distributor for XIM APEX, Titan One & Titan Two at Mod Squad
XIM APEX demos on Twitch and YouTube. Follow Twitter for live stream alerts

Offline Biggage

  • MVP
  • *
  • Posts: 954
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Channel
  • Gamertag: Atmo nS
  • PSN ID: Atmo_nS
Re: Xim4 SA3 vs Xim Apex in BO4
« Reply #14 on: 05:29 PM - 10/30/18 »
Hmm I was under the impression by ObsIV's post here that boost doesn't do anything when boost isn't overridden. Meaning if Steady Aim is just checked that's it. Boost values beyond that I thought just actually add boost. Which could be why you felt like you went through AA so easily?