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Nick Polling rates  (Read 4451 times)

Offline Ding Chavez

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #15 on: 02:41 PM - 07/02/08 »
??? little confused by this, I've got a razer lachesis which can do 4000dpi and has a polling rate of upto 1000....what is this tick rate you are talking about?
Video games are just complex finite state machines.  Each tick of a video game will do multiple things like read in user input, draw an image to the screen, processes sound, and all the other fancy rigmarole that games do now days.  Video game engines will only ask for user input once per tick.

So your mouse which has a polling rate of 1000, is mostly unused fluff.  Your mouse will poll itself 1000 times per second, but the USB will only get polled at a maximum of 125 time per second (assuming PC default), and the game engine will only read in that USB user input at around 66 to 100 times per second.

So what is the point of a mouse with such a high polling rate?  Well, “hard core” gamers will say that a faster polling mouse will have the most up-to-date mouse state ready for the USB poll.  And that by increasing the USB polling rate, the most recent up-to-date mouse state is sent to the game engine to be processed.

technogiant

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #16 on: 03:53 PM - 07/02/08 »
Thanks for that Ding, I suppose its quite important to get things communicating as fast as possible with xim 2 as there are quite a few steps involved, mouse to PC to software to xim/controller to console to game engine...the quicker each step the better.

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #17 on: 04:10 PM - 07/02/08 »
Thanks for that Ding, I suppose its quite important to get things communicating as fast as possible with xim 2 as there are quite a few steps involved, mouse to PC to software to xim/controller to console to game engine...the quicker each step the better.

I was going to chime in, but ding got to it before I could. I will comment on the "quicker each step the better" yes this is true. I did a few experiments with 2000 DPI. I tried 60 then I tried 125, when the rate goes too high skipping occurs and that movement doesn't get processed. As I have come to find out I believe 85 is the cap on 4000 DPI on the razer lach. This is 3.5 times faster than Xim 1, and it's awesome. I play right now on the xim360 @60 updates/second which is absolutely wonderful to play at.

Now, let me through you for a curve ball and this is something I am also watching closely is the PC speed itself. I have noticed on my 9800 sli rig that the poll rate can actually go up to about 79 @ 1600 DPI where it can only hit 60's on my laptop. I am not sure if it's the USB chipset, the CPU speed or a combination as my laptop is a 1.1ghz centrino with 512 ram and my 9800 sli rig is a 2.66 oc'd to 3.7 and 4 gigs of ram which is oc'd as well. Interesting yes?
Happy Xim360 tester (former)

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That's 2 i's a space a TR then 2 zero's an F then a space then 2 more i's.

Offline Ding Chavez

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #18 on: 04:24 PM - 07/02/08 »
I suppose its quite important to get things communicating as fast as possible with xim 2
Sort of… but I think you’re missing the point.  Ultimately the game engine is going to ask for user input at a somewhat slow-ish rate.  The point is that all of the efforts to increase the USB polling rate, or purchasing a very fast polling mouse, will yield virtually no improvement.

The default max polling rate of 125hz for the PC USB is more then enough.

XIM2 wise, the performance of increasing its update rate will likely begin to plateau at around 60-ish updates/sec, because the game engine will likely not be ticking along much faster then that.

Offline cameltoe

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #19 on: 04:53 PM - 07/02/08 »
We Ps3 xim 1 guys have been playing at 60 updates for a while now....compared to the 30 on the 360, its night and day. I hope xim2 on the 360 performs better then xim 1 on the ps3! Will be disappointed if its like the same thing!

technogiant

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #20 on: 12:29 AM - 07/03/08 »
So the "Tick Rate" that Nick is mentioning...is this an alterable parameter in the Xim software?...the only variables I can find in my mouse software are DPI and polling rate?
From Nicks comments he is obviously altering and trying different tick rates?
« Last Edit: 12:33 AM - 07/03/08 by technogiant »

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #21 on: 12:48 AM - 07/03/08 »
Since we are talking about mice and usb rates, I would like to point you to this article. It's the best work I've ever seen done on mice. ESReality is a community of hardcore PC gamers; if there are places where mice are a relevant subject, that site is one of them.

I'm not an expert but messing around with direct input I see you have two options for tracking the mouse. One is to read the input currently given, an other is to read the buffered data. I guess that if you have an usb thick of 1000hz, you will buffer a lot of small inputs; you can read them from the buffer and sum them up, so that you can process everything at your game thick rate (for instance 60, 75 or 125FPS). The advantage of such a trick is that since every mouse reading is smaller (as you broke the time in a finer way, every measurement is less space), you avoid to reach the optical/laser malfunction speed (which is a measure of distance over 1 tic rate (usb rate)).
« Last Edit: 12:53 AM - 07/03/08 by Memento_Mori »

Offline Ding Chavez

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #22 on: 09:38 AM - 07/03/08 »
So the "Tick Rate" that Nick is mentioning...is this an alterable parameter in the Xim software?...the only variables I can find in my mouse software are DPI and polling rate?
From Nicks comments he is obviously altering and trying different tick rates?
Yes, the XIM2 will have its own adjustable update rate.  Which is not to be confused with the mouse’s polling rate, the USB polling rate, or the game engines tick rate.

Just to clarify, the phrasing of “tick” is just a generic metaphor to represent the occurrence of something completing a beginning-to-end process.  A video game “tick” is just the general terminology used to explain the occurrence of a game going through all of its processes and completing one game loop (during which time will include reading user input).

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #23 on: 11:55 AM - 07/03/08 »
So the "Tick Rate" that Nick is mentioning...is this an alterable parameter in the Xim software?...the only variables I can find in my mouse software are DPI and polling rate?
From Nicks comments he is obviously altering and trying different tick rates?
Yes, the XIM2 will have its own adjustable update rate.  Which is not to be confused with the mouse’s polling rate, the USB polling rate, or the game engines tick rate.

Just to clarify, the phrasing of “tick” is just a generic metaphor to represent the occurrence of something completing a beginning-to-end process.  A video game “tick” is just the general terminology used to explain the occurrence of a game going through all of its processes and completing one game loop (during which time will include reading user input).



My apologies for speaking geek talk, I am glad ding broke it down for you. He nailed it! I am adjusting the rates but I have found that unless you have 4000dpi mouse, the rates will not really get about 75 to 100. Why the wierd spread, I have tried it on 7 different machines with different speeds. The bottom line is 60 always works, and everything above that seems to be tied to the DPI (how high you have it) and maybe 10-15% the speed of your machine (ie 1ghz vs 3ghz dual vs quad etc etc).

A question I was asked via email was on the 4000 dpi mouse what was the difference between 60 and 80 on a machine that can do it that quickly? My answer, it's silky smooth at 60 already and I have a hard time noticing at 80 unless I dump to 1200 or 1600 then it gets funky chicken. 60 is really smooth and I know everyone is going to really love that. It truly is awesome.
Happy Xim360 tester (former)

Gamertag ii TR00F ii
That's 2 i's a space a TR then 2 zero's an F then a space then 2 more i's.

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #24 on: 12:50 PM - 07/03/08 »
I told you a storm was coming can you feel it?
http://xim3.com/community/index.php?topic=657.0


@#$% I am excited. happy days at last.
Happy Xim360 tester (former)

Gamertag ii TR00F ii
That's 2 i's a space a TR then 2 zero's an F then a space then 2 more i's.

Offline dbldrew

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #25 on: 02:22 PM - 07/05/08 »
So the "Tick Rate" that Nick is mentioning...is this an alterable parameter in the Xim software?...the only variables I can find in my mouse software are DPI and polling rate?
From Nicks comments he is obviously altering and trying different tick rates?
Yes, the XIM2 will have its own adjustable update rate.  Which is not to be confused with the mouse’s polling rate, the USB polling rate, or the game engines tick rate.

Just to clarify, the phrasing of “tick” is just a generic metaphor to represent the occurrence of something completing a beginning-to-end process.  A video game “tick” is just the general terminology used to explain the occurrence of a game going through all of its processes and completing one game loop (during which time will include reading user input).



My apologies for speaking geek talk, I am glad ding broke it down for you. He nailed it! I am adjusting the rates but I have found that unless you have 4000dpi mouse, the rates will not really get about 75 to 100. Why the wierd spread, I have tried it on 7 different machines with different speeds. The bottom line is 60 always works, and everything above that seems to be tied to the DPI (how high you have it) and maybe 10-15% the speed of your machine (ie 1ghz vs 3ghz dual vs quad etc etc).

A question I was asked via email was on the 4000 dpi mouse what was the difference between 60 and 80 on a machine that can do it that quickly? My answer, it's silky smooth at 60 already and I have a hard time noticing at 80 unless I dump to 1200 or 1600 then it gets funky chicken. 60 is really smooth and I know everyone is going to really love that. It truly is awesome.

I don't really think you would see any improvement above 60. Think about it this way, how smooth the mouse feels is based on what you see happening on screen. You move your mouse and you see your sight move on screen, pretty simple. But here's the thing, the xbox only refreshes the image at 60fps, so having the mouse poll faster then that means that you will never see those extra polls, so no advantage, in fact it might end up getting more choppy.

 

Playing with the polling rate for pc gaming where the refresh rate isn't capped would yield better results, but unfortunately the 360 is capped at 60fps...
« Last Edit: 02:43 PM - 07/05/08 by dbldrew »

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #26 on: 11:35 AM - 07/07/08 »
There is some difference on a 4000dpi at 85 vs a 2000dpi at 60. It's not really smoother per se but it's seems to track better. I am having a hard time with it though. It's like Obsiv and I are noticing *some* very light diagonal acceleration with COD 4 and noticing a difference with diagonal dampen on or off at various intensity. All in all if you set updates a second at 60 it's a good time. If you can get more, you let me know if you can see the difference.
Happy Xim360 tester (former)

Gamertag ii TR00F ii
That's 2 i's a space a TR then 2 zero's an F then a space then 2 more i's.

Offline dbldrew

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #27 on: 04:06 PM - 07/07/08 »
I’m sure there is a difference between a 4000dpi @ 85 vs a 2000dpi @60, (ones 4000dpi the other is 2000dpi) The real question is there any difference between a 4000dpi @85 vs a 4000dpi @60. My guess is there isn’t, like Ding has said earlier, the game engine is only going to accept so much user input per second. We don’t know what the limit is, but we do know that the xbox is set to out put at 60 fps, so even if by some wired chance the game designers made the game engine accept input faster then it out puts, your not going to see it anyway.   

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #28 on: 12:23 AM - 07/09/08 »
I’m sure there is a difference between a 4000dpi @ 85 vs a 2000dpi @60, (ones 4000dpi the other is 2000dpi) The real question is there any difference between a 4000dpi @85 vs a 4000dpi @60. My guess is there isn’t, like Ding has said earlier, the game engine is only going to accept so much user input per second. We don’t know what the limit is, but we do know that the xbox is set to out put at 60 fps, so even if by some wired chance the game designers made the game engine accept input faster then it out puts, your not going to see it anyway.   


4000 dpi at 85 and 4000 dpi at 60 there is a difference - on UT3, but not on COD4 or Halo 3. Why? I have no clue but for some reason it runs smoother on just the one mouse, but then on another mouse not so much. I am over it though, 60 is smooth as silk so I would say just stick with that, unless you feeling froggy and want to explore how the different settings react.
Happy Xim360 tester (former)

Gamertag ii TR00F ii
That's 2 i's a space a TR then 2 zero's an F then a space then 2 more i's.

Offline Gekkebelg

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Re: Nick Polling rates
« Reply #29 on: 03:22 AM - 07/09/08 »
for letting XIM360 work in XP on vista, can't you yust go to compatibility setting and select " run program in xp sp2 "? yust my tought.

Mitch