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OBsIV ... couple of questions? (For Advanced Xim players)  (Read 214508 times)

Offline RML

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SEE BELOW FOR LINKS TO TEST FIRMWARE DROPS

#1 - I understand that STv2 is deriving more information from the look mechanic then ever before, but is this necessarily a good thing when it comes to Aim Assist?

#2 - Is it possible that STv2 is creating a feeling of added Aim Assist?

#3 - Was that part of your intention? I know some individuals want their XIM to act like an aim bot, I believe that is a poor decision. I believe most of us just want it to be as precise as possible. Aim assist actually hinders this from happening and is my one and only complaint about this product. Which, unless you're trying to somehow intensify AA with your translator isn't any fault of the translator. If you aren't is it possible you're translator is doing it unintentionally?

I ask these questions because for every game I've played since the upgrade AA feels intensified to me. Sometimes to the point that it often effects my aim. It would be fine if AA directed me to the target and held my aim right there. More often then not though it acts like a buffer bubble surrounding targets that I have to burst without over aiming. It literally feels like you hit that wall "Bubble" your movement is severely hindered and if you don't move your mouse faster you will get stuck there, trailing your target. Then you often move too fast, burst the bubble and over shoot the target. This is what I've been experiencing ever since I bought my first XIM. However, STv2 seems to have made that sensation feel even worse.

This is why my Anti-AA curves have gone from this, over the years.


To this.


The first curve I used to help with Destiny AA on STv1 and XIM4's original firmware. The second curve I'm now experimenting with for Destiny ADS with STv2. They're drastically different and yet they're what I feel was needed to get the same experience from the different ST versions when it pertains to AA.

I would say, "Hey they must've changed the look mech and have added more AA with their upgrades." Except, it appears that every game I've played on STv2 I've had to drastically chg. this curve to overcome the feeling of AA hindering my aim. Destiny right now appears to be the worst yet. I'm sure that's because the game has always had an insane amount of AA though. More so then most games, anyways.

Thoughts? Facts? Suggestions? Anything you can offer to lesson my feeling of craziness (along with many, MANY others on this forum).

BTW, I never use steady aim for ADS on any game. It seems to make the problem even worse.

LINKS

1st drop - "Ok, as mentioned before I am working on different variations of Steady Aim given the analysis I've done. My working hypothesis is that the extra precision of STv2 is picking up jitter in some peoples' hands which is causing AA to trigger differently. This is why I'm interested in trying different types of Steady Aim.

Here is the first attempt: http://cloud.xim4.com/Beta/XIM4Flash-20160601-STEADYAIM0.exe

WARNING: This is an experimental build. Do not use it if you haven't been following this thread!

This note this is a quick hack that repurposes Boost to be the level of intensity for this version Steady Aim. Boost no longer acts like it did before, it's there now to change how intense Steady Aim feels.

To use: Enable Steady Aim and then set Boost between 1 and 100.

Suggested that you start with Boost (i.e. Steady Aim intensity) around 50. Value of 100 will feel unusable."

- OBsIV


2nd Drop -   "New Steady Aim experimental test build is available here: http://cloud.xim4.com/Beta/XIM4Flash-20160624-STEADYAIM1.exe

This modifies how Steady Aim works (still hijacks Boost for 0 to 100 intensity). You prior values for Steady Aim are no longer valid.

Also, this build changes how Ballistics work. Curves now map to 100% of maximum turn speed (as opposed to 125%). 125% was chosen before due to limitations of STv1. STv2 doesn't have this limitation so the curve now has an effective higher resolution with this test build."

- OBsIV
« Last Edit: 01:42 PM - 07/09/16 by RML »
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Offline OBsIV

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #1 on: 01:29 PM - 05/21/16 »
Hey RML, the motivation for Steady Aim was, of course, this reason. I can say from a data point of view, ST2 with Steady Aim on is almost identical to ST1. Have you tried going back to 20141114 to see if what you are feeling now is still there on that build (which is ST1)?
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Offline RML

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #2 on: 01:51 PM - 05/21/16 »
Hey RML, the motivation for Steady Aim was, of course, this reason. I can say from a data point of view, ST2 with Steady Aim on is almost identical to ST1. Have you tried going back to 20141114 to see if what you are feeling now is still there on that build (which is ST1)?

I'll PM you my personal info, as soon as I get my 2nd XIM4 in the mail I'll get right on that. (Breaking changes are not my friend, to many curves, sub settings, etc.)

Lol ...

Honestly/seriously, I'm just going purely off of feel in game. To me the AA was immediately evident coming back to the game. It literally feels so much different that it's obvious. I know how I want AA to feel for me and there's no way I would've stuck with just that curve on STv1.

I haven't tried Steady Aim simply because I had a very similar experience with BO3. After upgrading to STv2 AA felt stronger on that game as well. I tried Steady Aim and couldn't feel a perceivable difference. I'll give it a go with Destiny. However, my understanding of Steady aim is that it's there to eliminate jitters. My problem there is, jitters usually equates to a feeling of the mouse being too sensitive. Hopefully you can see why this all isn't adding up for me.

STv1 = Less sensitive (precise) then STv2. Yet, for some reason I'm using a more aggressive curve to combat AA with STv2 than I felt I needed to with STv1. This is why I ask, can the translator affect AA?

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Offline guitarpanda

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #3 on: 04:10 PM - 05/21/16 »
I'll bite, I've been around for long enough to have a valid opinion.  STV1 absolutely works better with aim assist. There have been quite a few threads about this as I remember. Even with steady aim on v2,  while a bit better,  still presents too much AA.  I know there are curves and all the possibilities are there with v2, but on v1 I don't need any curves.  It slows down on targets, but I can break though a lot easier.

 v2, I guess because it's so sensitive, creates almost a deadlock at times, tracking my players for me with no real aim from me, but is incredibly hard to break out of. 

As with RML, I'm only going off by feel, but I just switched back, and the difference is night and day for me.  I imagine  V2 is much more accurate without aim assist, but as we all know all these console games have AA. 

v1 yields a lot more control for me in regards to countering AA and feels closer to PC aiming despite being on a console.  On V2, I'm in a lot less control, and it tracks/locks on for me which is a lot harder to deal with in my opinion.

Maybe it's just too accurate, again, I'm only going by feel and this has been brought up a few times at least in the past.  I think one time in one of the old threads I suggested maybe we shoot for the best aiming experience on console, not necessarily the truest 1-1 experience, or whatever happened that changed and made AA a lot more aggressive.

Offline antithesis

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #4 on: 04:57 PM - 05/21/16 »
Destiny PvE AA is a like a gravity well. I don't get that feeling at all in PvP, probably because I'm too busy dying...

Blame the game, not the tools. Xim can't add anything that doesn't exist within the game. Perhaps V2 more accurately maps game mechanics, so the feeling of AA is amplified, but I honestly can't say I've noticed any significant difference, and not to the detriment of my aim.

I think the strong AA in Destiny is compounded by the slow turn speed, which can make tracking more difficult. Not to mention inherent AA value varies wildly among weapons...the waters are muddy in Destiny.

The mouse also makes a difference - while my G303 is more controllable, I can track and turn better using a Razer Ouroboros. I've had to increase my HIP and Sprint sensitivity and boost so I red-light a lot more on the G303 to get more of an Ouroboros feel. ADS feels fine as I can't snipe in PvP to save my life and stick to mid-range Pulse Rifles, so I'm admittedly not the best person to judge ST1 vs ST2.
« Last Edit: 05:12 PM - 05/21/16 by antithesis »

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Offline OBsIV

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #5 on: 05:56 PM - 05/21/16 »
Yes, it would help a lot if a comparison can be made with 20141114 vs 20160405 with Steady Aim on. At least with 20160405 Configs can be backed up/restored to reduce the pain.
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Offline thr0bb1ngf3tus

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #6 on: 07:04 PM - 05/21/16 »
#1 - I understand that STv2 is deriving more information from the look mechanic then ever before, but is this necessarily a good thing when it comes to Aim Assist?

#2 - Is it possible that STv2 is creating a feeling of added Aim Assist?

#3 - Was that part of your intention? I know some individuals want their XIM to act like an aim bot, I believe that is a poor decision. I believe most of us just want it to be as precise as possible. Aim assist actually hinders this from happening and is my one and only complaint about this product. Which, unless you're trying to somehow intensify AA with your translator isn't any fault of the translator. If you aren't is it possible you're translator is doing it unintentionally?

I ask these questions because for every game I've played since the upgrade AA feels intensified to me. Sometimes to the point that it often effects my aim. It would be fine if AA directed me to the target and held my aim right there. More often then not though it acts like a buffer bubble surrounding targets that I have to burst without over aiming. It literally feels like you hit that wall "Bubble" your movement is severely hindered and if you don't move your mouse faster you will get stuck there, trailing your target. Then you often move too fast, burst the bubble and over shoot the target. This is what I've been experiencing ever since I bought my first XIM. However, STv2 seems to have made that sensation feel even worse.

This is why my Anti-AA curves have gone from this, over the years.


To this.


The first curve I used to help with Destiny AA on STv1 and XIM4's original firmware. The second curve I'm now experimenting with for Destiny ADS with STv2. They're drastically different and yet they're what I feel was needed to get the same experience from the different ST versions when it pertains to AA.

I would say, "Hey they must've changed the look mech and have added more AA with their upgrades." Except, it appears that every game I've played on STv2 I've had to drastically chg. this curve to overcome the feeling of AA hindering my aim. Destiny right now appears to be the worst yet. I'm sure that's because the game has always had an insane amount of AA though. More so then most games, anyways.

Thoughts? Facts? Suggestions? Anything you can offer to lesson my feeling of craziness (along with many, MANY others on this forum).

BTW, I never use steady aim for ADS on any game. It seems to make the problem even worse.

I agree 100% with this. I actually have purchase an Elite Controller since my KBM play has turned into absolute crap since ST2. I tried my XIM a couple weeks ago and it died (RIP). MAJOR bummer.... don't really know if I can afford another one.

Offline mist4fun

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #7 on: 07:14 PM - 05/21/16 »
I agree, do a backup and compare. Use the flash tool for a full backup instead of doing a per config backup and dealing with code.
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Offline OBsIV

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #8 on: 07:43 PM - 05/21/16 »
Yes, if people feel their gameplay has suffered with STv2, they should go back to STv1 (20141114) and verify that this change really is the reason. As I said, Steady Aim was added to produce the same results as STv1. But, if that's not the case, I'd like to know about it.
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Offline thepr0

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #9 on: 03:18 AM - 05/22/16 »
i would go back to old firmware but i used turn assist a lot plus i like the new back up features on the new firmware if you can have same features for stv1 with out aim assist that would be perfect. that is if its possible i honestly dont think aim assist is very useful, xim been out for years and no one has had an issue thats why theres curves and boost to help with sticky aim.

Offline Phil Ashio

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #10 on: 03:41 AM - 05/22/16 »
Please, don't replace ST2's as the default. I'm not against the option of STv1 for people who are convinced it helps but ST2 is definitively more precise, more responsive, tighter and just better.

I think people are confusing the obstinate aim assist problem with bad netcode. The problem is when you have bad netcode hit boxes, aim assist boxes, and the player models get all out of sync. So when you're trying to aim at the player model the aim assist box is somewhere else and is trying to lead your crosshair there whereas you're still trying to get it on the player model and end up fighting with the aim assist.

When the connection is good and everything is more or less in sync you will notice that this isn't an issue. Aim assist actually assists and doesn't hinder. This is all easily noticeable within Black Ops 3 by itself.

You can even see it when watching youtubers on controllers. They've learned how to trust aim assist and let it do all the work so you can often clearly see that where they shoot and the hit registers isn't anywhere near the player model. This is of course easier to do with a gamepad as with a mouse it's just natural to try and aim at the target regardless of where other forces are telling you the hitbox actually is.
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Offline RML

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #11 on: 10:29 AM - 05/22/16 »
Please, don't replace ST2's as the default. I'm not against the option of STv1 for people who are convinced it helps but ST2 is definitively more precise, more responsive, tighter and just better.

I think people are confusing the obstinate aim assist problem with bad netcode.

Phil, I agree with you to an extent. There are some things about ST2 that I like more and if there was absolutely no aim assist in games I would definitely prefer it over ST1. However, Aim Assist is something that we have to come to grips with on consoles and since it is there we have to find ways of using it to our advantage, not disadvantage. Everything I've seen so far points towards ST2 intensifying AA. OBsIV has already come out and pretty much admitted it, which is why Steady Aim was given as an option.

Anyways, just to be clear, my goal here isn't to replace ST2 and negate months of hard work by the XIM team. My goal is to help the XIM team offer their consumers the best product they possibly can. It's a win, win. The only way we can do that is to offer open, honest feedback.

Yes, net code and a solid connection with the other players does make a difference. Still, the same can be said for ST1. Everything is going to perform better under those circumstances. I'm not focusing on that.

I'm focusing on overall performance with both ST1 and ST2 as it pertains to Aim Assist. This is online/offline, multiple games (BF4, BF HL, BO3, BO1, Gears UE, Destiny and Fallout 4) good and bad connections.

I'm going to continue researching this, however, here's what I already know. Every game I've played since updating to ST2, I've had to use much more aggressive curves to overcome AA. That's Online and Offline. The curves I showed are a perfect example of this. As I've stated before, I've been doing this long enough now that I know how I want AA to feel for me. Those curves are a good example of how much AA has changed from ST1 to ST2. It's not just Destiny, look at my BO1 and BO3 AA curves. Same thing, much more aggressive then they were on ST1. I've also done the same thing with BF4, Fallout 4, and Gears.

Here's a really easy test for anyone. Play your fav game with ST1 and ST2 with no curves at all. AA is definitely different. As others have stated. It literally feels like ST2 has done it's job, it has made movement more precise. Yet, at the same time, it has made AA more precise (stronger).

Now let's be honest. Some gamers may like this feeling. Like I said in my opening comments. I truly believe OBsIV was trying to cater to this group that wants XIM to act like an Aim bot (to an extent). I don't remember all the ideas and concerns that were discussed prior to this change, as I wasn't around very much during that time.

I'm not out to derail the train here. If some of you enjoy this amount of AA then I believe you should have that option. Those of us though that want what OBsIV is claiming from this product "Precision" want a less intrusive amount of AA.

Again, is ST2 more precise then ST1? YES!

Is that a good thing? YES!

Except ... IMO ... when it comes to AA.

Obviously AA can be altered to an extent which is where steady aim comes into play. So what I'm really asking for here is - Please Revisit Steady Aim, if the goal was for it to feel like ST1, it's unsuccessful ATM.

Sorry for the long winded post, I'm a bit passionate about this topic. Why? Because for me AA can make or break my XIM experience. And, guess what, I'm not alone here. Every mod on here knows the struggles Destiny and BO3 players (that don't like AA) are experiencing with ST2.

Thank you.
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Offline OBsIV

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #12 on: 10:53 AM - 05/22/16 »
Please include Steady Aim in your tests. It was added for his very reason.
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Offline RML

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #13 on: 11:53 AM - 05/22/16 »
Please include Steady Aim in your tests. It was added for his very reason.

I did this back when I first created my BO3 setup. I tried both with and W/O Steady Aim and didn't feel the difference I was hoping for.

But yes, that is the goal of any testing going forward.

In the mean time, you guys are the one's with access to the data. Is there a perceivable way to decrease AA even more so then ST1? I would love to try something like this. Do I want absolutely NO AA? Of course not, if that was the case I would turn it off in game. What I seek is optimizing AA for mouse precision instead of using AA created for a thumb stick and trying to make it work with a mouse. I understand you're limited by the developers look mech, or are you?

My point is, you have shown the capability of being able to draw more data. Is it possible to draw less data at specific data points in the game. Could a translator be used in this manner to alter acceleration jumps by possibly "Not Translating" that data all together. I know that as a Halo fan, you have to be at least contemplating these ideas. You're not altering the game developers mechanics "per say" you're just picking and choosing what data you want to translate, kind of like my wife's approach to religion (lol, sry, felt compelled to add that tid bit).

I used to believe this was impossible, until, you took ST2 and altered the ST to try and help users complaining about too much AA.

Where I'm struggling here, is this. As you draw more and more data from your Translator it is definitely adding more precision which is good, but is also affecting AA. You have obviously seen this as well, which is why steady aim exists. Steady aim shows us that you do have the means to decrease the effect of AA. I'm assuming though that currently you have to "dummy down" the entire ST to do this. I agree that's not "Progress".

Could you please explain to me/us if this truly is the case, or do you have the means to alter AA without taking a step backwards and stupefying the entire ST?

Cheers!
« Last Edit: 12:04 PM - 05/22/16 by RML »
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Offline knox66

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Re: OBsIV ... couple of questions?
« Reply #14 on: 11:18 PM - 05/22/16 »
Where do I find a paste link to second curve u poasted RML. I saw it somewhere just can't quite stumble back into that thread.