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Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?  (Read 41578 times)

Offline abc123

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #45 on: 03:18 PM - 03/23/14 »
I don't think the issue is with the XIM code...Assumptions likely were made and thereby it is likely just an issue with changing the root functionality of the XIM device.  Perhaps at sometime they will go back and add variables to the low level speed and refresh rates but honestly you likely won't notice the difference between 4-8ms.

Offline Lord Of The Sith

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #46 on: 03:27 PM - 03/23/14 »
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3
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Offline Pneumatic

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #47 on: 03:32 PM - 03/23/14 »
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3

This has some interesting info on the subject...

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
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Offline wintersxxx868

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #48 on: 03:40 PM - 03/23/14 »
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3
Sorry I think I was slightly misunderstood by my post, I meant in regards to that 3MIX's posts about that the human eye is more sensitive to FPS drops than to actual fast paced Hz refresh rates which was the point I was trying to make.  This is why you're able to discern even between 60 hz to a 120 hz monitor. Even though they aren't side by side, you're able to make out a difference because one is noticeably faster than the other from your previous experiences. 

In pharmacy school from what I remember, the human eye doesn't just sense at a stable 60 hz.  It actually depends on lighting (moving from light to dark, dark to light), the actual amount of myelination the person carries for their optical nerves (trust me this can actually vary quite a bit due to saltatory conduction lol) which is why 60 hz was just a generalization I made.  Again I might be completely wrong about 60 hz being the max but I was just trying to use 60 hz an example based on 3MIX_Edge's monitor. 

Offline ak-xs

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #49 on: 03:58 PM - 03/23/14 »
guys guys, it's really simple:

regardless of how many frames per second we can see, it's easy to perceive differences above that framerate. movement is a wonderful thing, and while you might not see more individual frames, the combined result of seeing more frames changing more rapidly leads to noticeable differences and effects.



when we see a moving image, the difference between something that is blurry and something that is not can not be apparent but can also still be noticed. fighting game nerds proved this with Plasma vs LCD when the jumping animation of the char in printscreens was blurry on LCD(@60Hz) while on Plasma(@120Hz) you would not see any blur on the prints and just saw the animation mid way.

so during game play, to the human eye, in both setups the animation is just a blur. you see the jump and the char moving but little detail. yet, during play in the heat of the moment that tiny "invisible" difference (or rather others like it) turns to a noticeable disconnect between animation and input (not to mention you still perceive one thing to be more blurry than the other)
« Last Edit: 04:04 PM - 03/23/14 by ak-xs »
soon..

Offline He4DHuNt3r

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #50 on: 04:30 PM - 03/23/14 »
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

So it's possible, But could/will cause problems?? ???

I'm not quite sure what's so different about this & the 824EX drop that removed 8ms of additional input lag from before :(

I just wanted to say that you are a phenomenal gamer. You make it look so easy and your gameplay has this commanding "tone" to it (i.e. not frantic -- more of a dominating calm :) ).

Offline OBsIV

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #51 on: 10:49 PM - 03/23/14 »
He4DHuNt3r, what you are talking about is different. Prior to that build, mouse was polled every other USB update cycle in order to better support low-DPI mice (this means every 16ms). It was then changed to every USB update cycle (i.e. 8ms).
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Offline anony

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #52 on: 12:02 AM - 03/24/14 »
But obsiv, 4ms makes a decent difference when the milliseconds stack up especially with TV lag. Can't this be applied in a beta once all the fundamentals are done and xim4 is out?


Offline roads

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #53 on: 01:43 AM - 03/24/14 »
IŽd call this the 4ms uprising. I cant chime in as the 200ms lag compensation is so much taking me from behind in any game maybe except PvZ, I simply can not chime in on 4ms. Good luck boys.
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Offline Od1n

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #54 on: 05:06 AM - 03/24/14 »
while 4ms would sound nice i prefer to have a stable connection to the XIM
all the XIM2/XIM360 gamer do know what a refreshrate of 120 or 145 can cause once in a while, quite annoying tbh
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Offline BroTsla

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #55 on: 05:43 AM - 03/24/14 »
But obsiv, 4ms makes a decent difference when the milliseconds stack up especially with TV lag. Can't this be applied in a beta once all the fundamentals are done and xim4 is out?

This is how I feel, 8ms by itself isn't bad but stacked up with tv lag or whatever else just adds to it.

Offline Lord Of The Sith

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #56 on: 07:01 AM - 03/24/14 »
I suppose what we are lacking is an explanation of why it can't work?
Or how it would make things unstable if it was applied.


We're not against you here OBsIV, i remember the days when you used to give full explanations and talk us through the process! Now don't mistake me for being immature here and throwing a tantrum.

I full understand you're a very busy man, much more then the XIM1/2 days.
And i also understand that you have to be careful not to give away too much to the competition.

But the best way to stop us harassing you about achievable goals is to break it down for us!
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Offline Sully_pa

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #57 on: 08:01 AM - 03/24/14 »

Offline singlecoilpickup

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #58 on: 08:56 AM - 03/24/14 »
OBsIV probably isn't going to tell you why it can't work because that would likely involve explaining a great deal about how the communication synchronization works. Competitors hawk these forums too heavily today to be giving away valuable information like that. He's already given you a pretty solid reason - it would be a huge undertaking and has a decent possibility of destabilizing the whole system.

Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement, no matter what lag other parts of your system might have. You might think you can feel it, but I might be so brazen as to suggest you're falling victim to a placebo effect.

Further, OBsIV isn't going to do this because even if you do feel it, not enough people would. Even once everything is stable there are new features and suggestions to implement that will benefit a larger portion of the player base than the handful of superhumans we have among us who can feel 4ms.
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Offline RookCheck

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Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
« Reply #59 on: 09:05 AM - 03/24/14 »
I second the placebo effect.
I swear to god I will bring forth a rage so complete in it's fury that your innards would boil from the sheer amount of energy pouring from your monitor.

Rook said everything that can be said.