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Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...  (Read 4454 times)

Offline Memento_Mori

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Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« on: 05:51 AM - 02/19/09 »
Dear all,

I saw in many discussions people boasting their 1600-2000DPI mice as a must. Since I always played with a 400DPI mouse and believe it works just fine, I decided to open this discussion to convince you all about my point.

Let us consider this graph:


Sensitivity: this basically measures how much you move your mouse to get a 360 in the game. I took a range between 5cm (~2inches) which is a very high sensitivity up to 40cm (~15 inches) which is very low.

Precision: this measure the smallest in game rotation that the mouse can do.

Example: with a sens. of 15cm/360 the precision of a 400DPI is around 0.15.

As you can see from the graph, the 1600DPI mouse is much more precise than the 400DPI one, especially at lower sensitivity. But the real question is: Do I need that precision?

To answer that let me take an example. You are shooting at a target 30 meters (~100 feet) away.


Sensitivity: same as above.

Precision: This is the smallest correction you can do shooting at 30m (~100feet).

Example: with a sens. of 15cm/360 the accuracy of a 400DPI at 30m is below 10 cm.

Again, the 1600 is more precise, but unless you go toward very low sensitivities, the 400DPI mouse is precise enough. And consider that usually when you are shooting at a distant target, you use the weapon scope which usually lower the sensitivity (as well as the field of view).

I hope this clarify your thoughts on this.
« Last Edit: 07:21 PM - 02/19/09 by Memento_Mori »

Offline incredible

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #1 on: 06:07 AM - 02/19/09 »
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #2 on: 06:21 AM - 02/19/09 »
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

;D

Offline CEOrko

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #3 on: 06:52 AM - 02/19/09 »
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

If only. The default 60Hz for the XIM2 doesn't help either, but then I'm not wanting a much higher update rate for the right reasons to begin with.

Offline tameanaka

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #4 on: 07:31 AM - 02/19/09 »
Do you mean 30m = ~100ft...?  Nice info, generally I'm a pretty low sensitivity player and I play around 800-1200dpi usually.  We'll see what the optimum is with the xim once mine comes.

Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #5 on: 08:05 AM - 02/19/09 »
Do you mean 30m = ~100ft...?
Fixed, thanks.

Offline toysrme

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #6 on: 10:18 AM - 02/19/09 »
Any lag in the system is lag.

there is lag between your hand moving and the mouse picking it up - dpi. there is lag between your mouse reporting the movement and the PC picking it up - usb polling rate, there is lag in the XIM software processing this to your form of XIM input. there is lag in the XIM input reporting the movement to the console. there is lag in the console outputting the video & audio signals that return you to your brain telling your hand to move the mouse.

Ive posted this before which you no doubt read. On my laptop alone, with my G9 using the setpoint drivers:
7.79ms @ 125htz
4.83ms @ 200htz
3.84ms @ 250htz
2.91ms @ 333htz
2.01ms @ 500htz
?ms @ 750htz
1.01ms @ 1000htz
I game, I run 1000htz. The only reason the mouse comes off 1000htz is to do something CPU intensive. Running XIM software is not.

What does 8ms+ worth of lag do at 125htz or less? It pushes the lag between when you move and when your brain sees it coming through your video driver another 8+ seconds behind when you made it. That's putting a so-so 12ms LCD screen into the happy puking 20ms+ refresh range & putting a nicer newer LCD display into the so-so catigory. ya, its noticeable.
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #7 on: 10:58 AM - 02/19/09 »
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).

Offline nickstudy

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #8 on: 11:15 AM - 02/19/09 »
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

Bottleneck FTW.
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Offline toysrme

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #9 on: 12:54 PM - 02/20/09 »
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).
and my point is that that single point is not the only place that takes time. there is time taken long before you even reach the step of XIM/Controller sends input to the xbox
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Offline Memento_Mori

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #10 on: 05:55 PM - 02/20/09 »
Sorry if I quote myself...

If the last step of the pipeline has a tickrate of 125Hz, you could have a trillion Hz mouse before but it would not matter. Look at this picture:



Having 1000Hz does not change the speed of electrons, nor the xim processing. It simply reduces the waiting time between one mouse input and the other. But this leads nowhere, as only one input per xbox tick can pass.

The error is that when you convert 1000Hz to 1ms or 125Hz to 8ms, you are wrong in thinking that this is the "processing" time (so the former is faster). This is a waiting time. The transmission and processing of the signal has the same speed.

I hope I convinced you.

Offline incredible

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #11 on: 02:01 AM - 02/21/09 »
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).
and my point is that that single point is not the only place that takes time. there is time taken long before you even reach the step of XIM/Controller sends input to the xbox

its been said that anything works on 1000Hz (MX510, IE3.0 etc. which are the first REAL gaming mice)
btw what kind of edge it gives when at the end xim+g9 for example = xim+intelli3.0 (when processing to xbox)

Offline tweak

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #12 on: 11:28 AM - 02/21/09 »
I think toysrme's point in all of this is that, although from a technical standpoint there's no real superiority due to the aforementioned bottlenecks, there's still a human factor to be taken into consideration and that mice with higher DPI and polling rate can compensate in a way. 

Ultimately we're gonna use the mouse that makes us happy so it's really a moot point.

Offline toysrme

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #13 on: 03:15 AM - 02/25/09 »
partly.
also that the average update speed for a slow movements of a 125htz mouse is >20ms. which... anyone that's ever played on a slower LCD monitor. listened to surround sound audio that's out of phase, or anyone that's played on an XIM 1 and thought it sucked, then played an XIM2 with the exact same hardware and setups - and thought the XIM2 was "oh my god better".

will tell you that the higher you poll your mouse, the faster its movement is going to be read by the PC and sent on its merry way.
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Offline Boddiebagger

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Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
« Reply #14 on: 04:31 AM - 02/25/09 »
Sorry if I quote myself...

If the last step of the pipeline has a tickrate of 125Hz, you could have a trillion Hz mouse before but it would not matter. Look at this picture:



Having 1000Hz does not change the speed of electrons, nor the xim processing. It simply reduces the waiting time between one mouse input and the other. But this leads nowhere, as only one input per xbox tick can pass.

The error is that when you convert 1000Hz to 1ms or 125Hz to 8ms, you are wrong in thinking that this is the "processing" time (so the former is faster). This is a waiting time. The transmission and processing of the signal has the same speed.

I hope I convinced you.


I am by no means an expert on any of this, but from my understanding from this chart its not making sense. You saying the optimum setting is 1/1?

Your assuming that at a 1 to 1 poll rate the the xbox and mouse rates are in sync where the mouse is sending its signal at the last possible moment before the xbox process's its own. The xbox rate and mouse rate on a timeline can and will be out of sync. For your assumption to be correct the xbox will have to recieve the signal from the XIM/mouse at the very last moment before it sends its own signal. There is no way to guarentee that the mouse, XIM, and xbox poll rates are in sync on a timeline. So from what im seeing, a mouse poll rate at 1000hz will give you 8 times the chance the xbox is recieving the most up to date signal. Am i right?

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