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Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..  (Read 10491 times)

Offline x7rEmE

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #30 on: 06:44 AM - 12/19/08 »
@locked

guess watching blu ray could be kewl but that's all i would prob get it for.. hhee, i just haven't really tried the ps3 much always been a xbox360 person so who knows maybe the ps3 is nice but from things I've heard people don't like it but who knows eh :P
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Offline toysrme

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #31 on: 10:00 AM - 12/19/08 »
Im sorry but heat is not the primary cause of RROD's. Cracked solder joints from using an incorrect amount of an incorrectly specified solder applied incorrectly to a board that is not engineered securely is a reason for RROD's.
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Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #32 on: 11:21 AM - 12/19/08 »
Not sure why you keep arguing.. but again the heat causes the board to shift/warp around where the stock heatsink is clamped to and yes the solder joints fail, almost anything that warps the solder joints will fail.. nobody ever said that didn't happen, they alone are not the only problem. Heat and warpage from it cause them to fail especially any weak joints. It isn't a secret.. Removing the stock heatsink on the gpu/cpu and removing the heat stops the board from warping/flexing when the gpu is in use and the RROD's stop. Computer motherboards suffer the same issues from people who crank down water blocks to tight and flex the boards also. The failures fell from around 30% to 10% with the latest board release. Removing the heat/flex/warping with water cooling and using better spacers/bolts with after market water blocks has only got to help I remove 3 of the researched and documented problems right there. While you may not agree with this that's fine, but rehashing it over and over isn't going to sway my opinion I have researched the topic endlessly and made a decision. I use it as a media center it hasn't been off for anything other than the dashboard update and a couple reboots. We'll see if I ever have a rrod I will post updates ever 6 months or so. If it fails or I get RROD I'll change my stance.

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Basically it looks like the 3 lights of death are a design flaw.

Inside the 360 the CPU and GPU are both BGA chips. The clamping mechanism used to keep the heatsink on the chip causes all the pressure to be in a tuny point at the centre of the chip with the pressure pushing upwards from the bottom of the board.
This causes the motherboard to flex (MS in their wisdom didn’t secure the board to the base except at the very edges - unlike a PC where the board is screwed down in multiple areas.).

The board flexes and the tiny solder connections on the CPU and GPU break and you get an intermittant problem that slowly gets worse.

The ‘towel trick’ works for a little while as your 360 gets hot enough to soften up the solder points and for the mobo to warp ever so slightly back to make contact again, but it will fail.

Basically you need to do the towel trick or similar and then replace the heastink clamps with bolts and nuts to secure the heatsink in a way that keeps the chip in full contact with the board and stops the board warping again.
« Last Edit: 01:23 PM - 12/19/08 by locked88 »

Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #33 on: 11:22 AM - 12/19/08 »
@locked

guess watching blu ray could be kewl but that's all i would prob get it for.. hhee, i just haven't really tried the ps3 much always been a xbox360 person so who knows maybe the ps3 is nice but from things I've heard people don't like it but who knows eh :P

It's pretty fun the muliplayers are huge on it. 60 people in resistance 2 = really fun. To be honest I think the PS3 performs more smoothly in some newer games. Game play in itself seems just about the same between the two consoles especially when you use a xim2 on the 360 and a xim1 on the PS3. It's basically like playing a computer game with a bigger screen. I do favor x360 for gaming, but only because of the enormous game library to pick from.
« Last Edit: 01:20 PM - 12/19/08 by locked88 »

Offline toysrme

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #34 on: 02:41 AM - 12/20/08 »
just letting you know now man you really want to give that arguement up.

THE BOARDS DO NOT FLEX UNDER OPERATIONAL HEAT!?

The epoxy used in making PCB's has a thermal coeffecient of expansion of 3.0 in/in/°F x 10-5 by itself! That's less than 1/3rd of a solid block of aluminum, 1/4 that of tin, bearly over 1/3 that of silver & copper.
We've yet to reinforce the epoxy and your theory is already not treading water!

Over the same temperature range 304 stainless steel would weigh in at 0.939 in/in/°F x 10-5.
Bare general steel would move a scant 0.645 in/in/°F x 10-5
A general fiberglass PCB of this type would be 0.722 in/in/°F x 10-5.


So you are claiming that heat warps the boards, and busts the solder joints. Inspite of the fact that below 300*F the boards fall somewhere in thermal expansion between steel, and the most common forms of stainless steel...
Riiiight.
And that the solder used in the washing machines that solder the boars is incorrect, yet still is ungodly ductile & malleable.
No.... The only time heat warps a board is when some moron greavously heats it working on it.

The solder does not cook itself off.
The chips do not fry themselves to a smoking, stenching oder like an egg on a Pentium.







It's still simply an incorrect amount of an incorrect solder applied incorrectly to a board who's heatsink retention mechanisim that could not hold its installed torque through shipping, let alone gaming of any kind. They've officially fixed the heatsink retention mechanism. Yet that poor solder walks out on the dance floor as fans, a laptop hard drive and "the worlds most annoying low quality DVD drive" give it a large beat to rhomba too...
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Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #35 on: 10:45 AM - 12/20/08 »


Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #36 on: 10:52 AM - 12/20/08 »
http://venturebeat.com/2008/09/05/xbox-360-defects-an-inside-history-of-microsofts-video-game-console-woes/

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There was no single reason for the failures - though many could be blamed on the graphics chip, which could overheat so much it warped the motherboard. This stressed bad solder joints, causing them to fail early in the machine's life - and the console was also one of the first products that had to meet new environmental standards in Europe prohibiting the use of lead in solder. Paul Wang, a Microsoft test engineer on the Xbox 360, said in a speech in 2007 that lead-free solder created a lot of problems.

SAME THING I KEEP SAYING


http://gear.ign.com/articles/881/881138p1.html

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The gaming public, however, was well aware of the truth of the situation after a number of peeps in the modding community opened their broken consoles and found the 360's GPU had run too hot, resulting in warped motherboards, unseated chips, and disconnected heat-sinks. Such evidence was only given greater credential when redesigned Falcon Xbox 360s arrived with a newly beefed up heatsink on the GPU.

http://www.gwn.com/news/story.php/id/13140/Xbox_360_Failures_Explained.html

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The problem is that the cooling design of the 360 doesn’t hold up. The cooling of the CPU was well done, with a heat pipe to draw the heat away from the chip (and accordingly, away from the mainboard). The problem is that the GPU and its low-profile heatsink sit under the DVD drive, and are given a very narrow channel for air to be pulled acrosss the heatsink by the fans. When the GPU heats up enough, not only does it reflow the solder in the ball grid array slightly, it can cause the entire mainboard to flex - a phenomenon largely caused by the X-shaped brackets that hold the heatsinks on under the mainboard. They hold the heatsinks down to the chips with a tension fit that presses up directly underneath those chips.

So when the system gets too hot, the combination of loosened solder with a mainboard that flexes from heat causes the GPU or CPU to actually break its connection from the board - resulting in the 3 red lights and secondary error code 0102 (the “unknown hardware error” code).
« Last Edit: 11:11 AM - 12/20/08 by locked88 »

Offline toysrme

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #37 on: 01:05 PM - 12/20/08 »
So IGN, FFG, and teen beat - i mean venture beat, showing articles from the Bay Area arts and entertainment blog, now presume to know anything of the matter; like yourself right???

What you're claiming is that at a very worse case scenerio a 4 layer board of this construction (This is a 6 layer board), when going from stone cold 0*F to 300*F. Which no part of that board would EVER see 175*F in operation. Will somehow expand and contract based on heat and bust its connect. Yet the amount it moves in that case would be 0.002166". Which by the way, is highly likely to be less than the general machining tolerances that the board is machined or screened from in the first place!?


Over the span of a cold room (68*F) to the boards stable operating board temp of 150*F for an intensive game the thing could at worst move 0.00059204"...
You can't blame the solder for giving up under temperature! A solder at 150*F who's working temperature is absolutely no less than 400*F (422*F if its the solder most suspect it of being) is not going to struggle at such mild temperatures.





Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news. While you are very entitled to your opinion; that makes your opinion is no less absudrly ignorant of any facts on the matter... You claim that a major factor in the failure rate is that the boards heat up, warp and bust the connects. Yet that board wouldn't expand SIX MILLIONTHS of an inch in it's operational life!?


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Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #38 on: 01:15 PM - 12/20/08 »
If you say it enough it will become true!! Click your little heals in your red slippers. Throw some numbers out there and act like an expert! Self proclaimed forum genius! I even agree the solder joints suck, that's why removing the heat/x-clamps/thin GPU heatsink that further stresses, THE ALREADY STRESSED FROM POORLY DESIGNED X-CLAMPS MOTHERBOARD, may stop them from failing at all! And you still continue on ROFL. Do you want a pat on the back or something?

I never said everyone should watercool and that this is the only RROD fix. It's my attempt at solving/preventing a headache and so far it's working EXCELLENT as it has for others as well. Your fix is well there isn't one..  telling people to return their 360 every month and or committing retail fraud and swapping broken units for new units...  that shows your true intellect thanks for that. RROD's also do not effect every 360, I have friends with day 1 units who play daily and never had any issues what-so-ever and I'm sure their are plenty right on this forum. I had bad luck with mine and refuse to be an idiot and fraud stores, other people and steal.

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Q: In your opinion what do you think the main cause of the Red Ring of Death failures have been?
RROD is caused by anything that fails in the "digital backbone" on the mother board. Also known as a core digital error. CPU, GPU, memory, etc. Bad parts, incompatible parts (timing problems) bad manufacturing process (like solder joints), misapplied heat sinks or thermal interface material, missing parts, broken parts, parts of the wrong value, missed test coverage. Any one or more, on any chip, or many other discrete components, would cause this. And many of the failures were obviously infant mortality, where they work when they leave the factory and fail early in use. The main design flaw was the excessive heat on the GPU warping the mother board around it. This would stress the solder joints on the GPU and any bad joints would then fail in early life.

There are also other significantly high failure rates in other areas, like the DVD.

Same message found thousands of places all over the internet. Yet you are the know it all of the world. I hope you're proud of yourself  :D give yourself that reach around.. hug and pat yourself on the tummy.

« Last Edit: 01:47 PM - 12/20/08 by locked88 »

Offline toysrme

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #39 on: 01:51 PM - 12/20/08 »
six millionths of an inch > your ignorance
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Offline locked88

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #40 on: 02:00 PM - 12/20/08 »
Don't forget thousands of other people companies review sites etc etc etc.
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Offline xavier_s37

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Re: Modded X360's? Modding mine currently..
« Reply #41 on: 02:24 PM - 12/22/08 »
after reading this, all i can come up with is a line from a jayz song.....

"dont argue with fools, because from a distance people cant tell who is who"