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XIM APEX => XIM APEX Discussions => Topic started by: BlueAid on 07:50 PM - 07/19/19

Title: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: BlueAid on 07:50 PM - 07/19/19
Our stance on this? The short answer is: we don't condone it. We are investigating ways to detect if players are doing it that we're testing internally. That's all we have to say on it for now but we'll revisit this and talk about progress with detection and how we'll address players that are using it in the near future.

Wonder how they will address this. Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled. Hopefully there will be some workarounds if they implement any kind of detection system.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Strykain on 08:06 PM - 07/19/19
In other words, they won't be doing anything about it. While Apex happens to be a massive hit, Respawn isn't known for making smart choices or actually doing things with their games.
This is mainly for all the people crying and whining on Twitter/Reddit about it, when in reality it's just a fall-back excuse for people.
It's amazing that if you go on Twitter or Reddit, you'll find just about everyone complaining assumes that literally 9 out of 10 games have a XIM user as the last team they are fighting.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: GamingNerd on 08:14 PM - 07/19/19
Blizzard said something similar to appease the M&K haters. But, they didn't do much to prevent or detect the use of M&K on their servers. So, I'd be surprised if they actually do something about it on Apex Legends. I don't know why gamers assume that us using M&K gives us some type of advantage. I'm struggling to make it to Diamond on Apex and I'm using it. There are but a hand full of us that are elite with M&K. And it's no different than a person being elite with a controller. Plus, there is this old saying that goes "if you can't beat them, join them." So if they really think it's that much of an issue no one's stopping them from purchasing the Xim so that they can see for themselves how hard it really is.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 11:03 PM - 07/19/19
Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled.

SAB is still on even if it's at 0. What's the highest value you can go before it happens? I know why it's cancelling and I can address it if need be.

The problem Respawn is going to have is false positives and also blocking people with disabilities (even those not using a XIM but using other custom accessibility aides that are designed for their specific disability). Fortnite backed out their attempt in a week after we started seeing people with disabilities blocked. Perhaps Respawn believes that they are more capable than Epic, but, even if they did find a way to reliably detect a XIM (or even more, a XIM not being used by a disabled person), they will see that count is nothing compared to their total gaming population. Perhaps then they can then tell their community that every time they get outgunned it's most likely because of lack of skill.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: BlueAid on 11:30 PM - 07/19/19
Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled.

SAB is still on even if it's at 0. What's the highest value you can go before it happens? I know why it's cancelling and I can address it if need be.

The problem Respawn is going to have is false positives and also blocking people with disabilities (even those not using a XIM but using other custom accessibility aides that are designed for their specific disability). Fortnite backed out their attempt in a week after we started seeing people with disabilities blocked. Perhaps Respawn believes that they are more capable than Epic, but, even if they did find a way to reliably detect a XIM (or even more, a XIM not being used by a disabled person), they will see that count is nothing compared to their total gaming population. Perhaps then they can then tell their community that every time they get outgunned it's most likely because of lack of skill.

Lowest SAB value I've had it cancel was 4. This was on firmware 20190429 and manager 20190315 before SAB had additional options like Off. I agree as well that with such a small window for them to differentiate XIM users with controller users in regards to analog movement, they will likely have a good amount of false positives.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Twoiwillie on 12:57 AM - 07/20/19
Does anyone know if it's possible for them to just detect the xim itself or does the xim completely make the Xbox think it's a controller?
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: GamingNerd on 01:49 AM - 07/20/19
Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled.

SAB is still on even if it's at 0. What's the highest value you can go before it happens? I know why it's cancelling and I can address it if need be.

The problem Respawn is going to have is false positives and also blocking people with disabilities (even those not using a XIM but using other custom accessibility aides that are designed for their specific disability). Fortnite backed out their attempt in a week after we started seeing people with disabilities blocked. Perhaps Respawn believes that they are more capable than Epic, but, even if they did find a way to reliably detect a XIM (or even more, a XIM not being used by a disabled person), they will see that count is nothing compared to their total gaming population. Perhaps then they can then tell their community that every time they get outgunned it's most likely because of lack of skill.
Why does it cancel? I use an SAB value of 100 on Apex Legends. The run doesn't cancel but I can't slide when I try to slide in a heated battle. And it's not just only on 100, it also happens at 65. The way I avoid it when I remember is to slow down my keyboard inputs. But, it's hard to train myself to do that when I get ambushed. Maybe I'll lower the value and see if I can find something that doesn't cancel the slide.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: antithesis on 03:41 AM - 07/20/19
Both PS4 and Xbox One have licenced mouse & keyboard adapters. That's a big problem for Respawn.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 04:04 AM - 07/20/19
Our stance on this? The short answer is: we don't condone it. We are investigating ways to detect if players are doing it that we're testing internally. That's all we have to say on it for now but we'll revisit this and talk about progress with detection and how we'll address players that are using it in the near future.

Wonder how they will address this. Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled. Hopefully there will be some workarounds if they implement any kind of detection system.
Respawn are just appeasing.

 If asked whether or not they condone the use of KB&M on AL they’re going to to say they don’t. If they said they do, there’d be a very loud outcry from all the butt-hurt cretins who have no idea about the limitations of mouse and keyboard via a XIM. Their response just takes the heat off them.

After all, what are they going to do to stop KB&M on their upcoming Star Wars game? What did they do to stop it in their previous Titanfall games? Zip. Nada. Sweet F A. Which is exactly what they’ll do in Legends.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: thisisfantasea on 06:20 AM - 07/20/19
But the way they wrote how they will talk about 'progression with detection and how we'll address players that are using it in the near future' reads like they're trying to find a way on how to first find out if someone is using a XIM, and secondly if they are, how to address it. Do you think they will just match up keyboard and mouse players with other keyboard and mouse players only?

I have a feeling that's what they're going to do. Which will please the controller players, and annoy the keyboard and mouse players with very long loads times, very high level of competition as everyone will be using a keyboard and mouse and to make the XIM users switch over to controller or forever face long loads times and crazy insane matches.

Honestly I presume they're only addressing it never a high number of people who are very high in the ranks on ranked mode are using a XIM, so it's becoming an issue in their eyes.

Can my idea be implemented?

I hope not haha.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 06:50 AM - 07/20/19
They’ll look for digitised movement like Epic Games did.

OBsIV implemented SAB so that keyboard movement looks less digital and is harder to detect, but even then it can’t ever appear as completely analogue - a straight line will always be straight, even if it’s only straight for a few micrometers.

If Respawn kick players using digitised input devices then they’ll kick XIM players. But they’ll also kick players using Microsoft and Sony-licenced products and those used by disabled players. Until such time as they work out how to do the former without doing the latter, they’ll take no action. And as only a tiny percentage of players are using a XIM (OBsIV recons the number of XIMmers on Fortnite is significantly less that 1%) they’re extremely unlikely to use their limited resources to detect it (they need to sort out their netcode and hit detection issues, first!).

As I said, the devs are just appeasing the vocal XIM-haters. It’s just hot air. If Epic Games couldn’t do it with the all-conquering FN, poor little Respawn have a snowball’s chance in hell.

(But just incase, OBsIV always has a plan! ;) )
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Verone- on 07:27 AM - 07/20/19
@OBsIV

If you'd be on the other side, would you be able to do something against XIM users?

Just wondering  ;D
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 09:31 AM - 07/20/19
@OBsIV

If you'd be on the other side, would you be able to do something against XIM users?

Just wondering  ;D

SAB (and other things XIM does in this area that I haven't talked about) was designed first and foremost to behave like a controller and also include the inherent randomness that comes with it too without degrading the user's experience.

That said, I do look at the output and think about how I would identify patterns that would be completely reliable since the bar is very high -- you cannot be wrong under any circumstances since you will falsely detect controller users. Given their numbers, even if they were to be able to achieve a 99% detection rate, they will be falsely blocking thousands of their controller gamers.

I'm especially passionate about this because, as I've mentioned in other posts, I've gotten many mails from people with disabilities or parents of those with disabilities thanking me for XIM and how it's changed their or their kids lives. That they finally can be included into something like gaming. This is something that we all take for granted and I'm not going to let a bunch of whiners routinely place blame on XIM even though reality is they got killed by another controller player and they really aren't as good as they think they are.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Strykain on 12:14 PM - 07/20/19
As I said before, Respawn isn't going to do anything about this. They did it solely to appease to the people crying and whining on the subreddit.

They gave their "Official response" on it, and that's as far as it's going to go.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: oxylus on 12:31 PM - 07/20/19
As the strike pack users sitting back laughing ha!
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 12:46 PM - 07/20/19
As I said before, Respawn isn't going to do anything about this. They did it solely to appease to the people crying and whining on the subreddit.

They gave their "Official response" on it, and that's as far as it's going to go.

Yep. After Epic and Fortnite's f***-up, and they started banning disabled gamers, I doubt anyone will "do anything" about it in the long run. The people whining about XIM users will never be as large as a handful of them, and the fact that developers have to address this at all instead of just ignoring them just continues to baffle me.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Theaznway on 03:16 PM - 07/20/19
Ea support don’t care that we are using a xim , just go ask to their support.Respawn are under ea and won’t do anything about it because we don’t violate any tos
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: antithesis on 03:49 PM - 07/20/19
It’s also noteworthy that disabled gamers account for 15% of all gamers. That’s higher than the percentage of left-handers at roughly 12% of gamers.

I (barely) fall into both categories - I'm a lefty and I have limited right thumb mobility and sensation due to a severed nerve 25 years ago. It's about 25% as mobile, dextrous and fast as my left thumb, I can't feel it half the time and I'm expected to use this thing to reliably aim with a controller?

Lefty mode is way too hard to adapt to after decades of gaming with conventional controls and that doesn't solve the problem of still needing two thumbs to use a controller. Frankly, I'm extremely lucky - there are gamers here with missing digits and limbs, or severe conditions that mean they can't even hold a controller.

The only device I found that completely bypasses my physical constraints is a XIM (and I own all alternatives). I could not be a console gamer without one and would not spend thousands of dollars a year buying console games if I couldn't use a XIM.

After decades of searching, I finally settled on a XIM, ambidextrous mice (don't get me started on that topic...) and a lefty Azeron Compact so I can use a mouse to aim and a thumbstick to move. That's a @#$% long time to simply find something, anything that enables me to play ANY game comfortably, and that could be taken away because someone else can't git gud and uses XIM as a scapegoat without a single concept of how it really works? Bring out the pitchforks, we gots ourselves a witch hunt!

Let's take the "morality" of using mouse & keyboard on a controller-based platform (let's ban steering wheels, HOTAS, arcade sticks and plastic guitars while we're at it...) and the simple FACT that both Sony and Microsoft have officially-licenced m/kb adapters for PS4 and XB1, from a financial perspective, is it worth a company’s time and money to negatively impact up to 15% of their playerbase to filter less than .01% of XIM users?

Grow a pair ladies - you're being beaten by controller users in 99.99% of engagements in popular games like Fortnite and Apex Legends. That percentage may increase with smaller playerbases and more hardcore competitive gameplay, but it's still going to exceed 90-95% in favour of controller users even in the most extreme XIM use case scenario.

Bottom line - I'm not going to spend a cent on any game that dictates the controls I must use on a gaming system that openly supports mouse & keyboard and offers licenced adapters. It's in violation of consumer rights, anti-discrimination acts and arguably human rights...that's a pretty tough bridge to cross for Respawn to genuinely consider.

I don't use a XIM to cheat, I use a XIM to compete with more able-bodied gamers. I just want to relax and have some fun - getting wrecked by forcing unusable controls on me means I don't spend money to play those games. Pretty simple, really.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: GamingNerd on 06:50 PM - 07/20/19
@OBsIV

If you'd be on the other side, would you be able to do something against XIM users?

Just wondering  ;D

SAB (and other things XIM does in this area that I haven't talked about) was designed first and foremost to behave like a controller and also include the inherent randomness that comes with it too without degrading the user's experience.

That said, I do look at the output and think about how I would identify patterns that would be completely reliable since the bar is very high -- you cannot be wrong under any circumstances since you will falsely detect controller users. Given their numbers, even if they were to be able to achieve a 99% detection rate, they will be falsely blocking thousands of their controller gamers.

I'm especially passionate about this because, as I've mentioned in other posts, I've gotten many mails from people with disabilities or parents of those with disabilities thanking me for XIM and how it's changed their or their kids lives. That they finally can be included into something like gaming. This is something that we all take for granted and I'm not going to let a bunch of whiners routinely place blame on XIM even though reality is they got killed by another controller player and they really aren't as good as they think they are.
Amen, i am greatly appreciative of your hard work. It helps those of us that are not disabled but have minor hand issues as well.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: papi on 10:37 PM - 07/20/19
I am having a hard time seeing a problem. If this were a real issue XIM users would be dominating every single game, and I don't think that is the case. Personally, sometimes I rock, more often I get wasted. I can't tell if I got wasted by a controller user or k&m. The device only allows an interface, the user has to do the rest. Will they try to ban the Elite Controller users on XB1? That is one high-tech controller that can be personalized to give a good player a better advantage.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: GamingNerd on 10:43 PM - 07/20/19
I am having a hard time seeing a problem. If this were a real issue XIM users would be dominating every single game, and I don't think that is the case. Personally, sometimes I rock, more often I get wasted. I can't tell if I got wasted by a controller user or k&m. The device only allows an interface, the user has to do the rest. Will they try to ban the Elite Controller users on XB1? That is one high-tech controller that can be personalized to give a good player a better advantage.
Exactly, as well as the scuf controllers with movement advantages and modded controllers with overwhelming advantages like sniper breath, drop shot, auto-run, jump shot and jitter mods. Something that has been a real issue since Ps3, and an issue that couldn't be solved because ban waves were banning legitimate players. So they can put a sock in it if you ask me until they fix all of the things that really need to be fixed.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Strykain on 11:56 PM - 07/20/19
I am having a hard time seeing a problem. If this were a real issue XIM users would be dominating every single game, and I don't think that is the case. Personally, sometimes I rock, more often I get wasted. I can't tell if I got wasted by a controller user or k&m. The device only allows an interface, the user has to do the rest. Will they try to ban the Elite Controller users on XB1? That is one high-tech controller that can be personalized to give a good player a better advantage.

I know 3 people who use the XIM and I regularly do better than them with my normal controller. It's unfortunate that most people who complain about XIM users don't take any time to research the actual device. They see one or two "Big" youtubers talk about how it's such a huge advantage and take their word for it, when those youtubers have never even used the device. They themselves are just going off what they see.
I've been a PC gamer for the past 10 years, and only recently came back to Console. I'm used to playing at 2000DPI and enough sense to do a 170 (give or take) turn with just my wrist. That's "High" for a lot of people, but I can't do that on Console due to the turn limitation. I can't do insane crazy 180 snaps on people without losing tracking because I'm naturally a wrist aimer.
It took me FOREVER to adjust to actually moving my arm/lifting the mouse up to have full turns.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ThedirtyRabbit on 12:26 AM - 07/21/19
I broke my right humb using a pipe cutting years ago. I've never regain the strength and dexterity back that it used to have. I've main stuck to RPGs because of this. I was always at a disadvantage against others at all console FPS's. I got a Xim so I could play on a even Battlefield. I kill and get killed.I hate that Xim is the scapegoat for the less skilled players. On the bright side, even time a scrub cries online that's free advertisement.

Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: wnb on 12:32 AM - 07/21/19
it all depends what a person wants from a game really dosnt it.. as this new cod may well decide ... your shrouds will destroy no matter what. but your faze optics and what not will also adjust and play a new style .... you will have your stock standard pc hackers... and you will have your modding console players...

i think xim is a tiny problem for them really... alot of people use it yer ... they get an advantage over your avg player but top tier ..... its all the same at the end of the day zues beat hades in one place hades beat zues in another... but if what you want is to be top tier .. i dont think your ganna do it on a xim (physically yes you could be the best any mastery is possible just adapt to weaknesses) but i mean would u get 1million followers and be invited to play at events and be called a pro ? i highly doubt it 1 you will get hate from the console players... 2 you will get hate from the uninformed pc players when they find out your getting aim assist and using a mnkb .. so ... it is what it is
 /endrant
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: YIAZ-M on 02:10 AM - 07/21/19
Blizzard told the same thing a few years ago.

The truth is a lot of players are just whinning when they get instant killed "he's a K/M user!!"

No, he's just a skilled pad user lol.

I'm plat 2  and even with my K/M, most of good players are just insane with a controller, I used to play on PC and sometime I get killed faster than on PC by controller users.


Now, I really don't think they can reliably identify a XIM, I think they should focus on their aimbot cheaters on PC because the top ladders are not a K/M fest on consoles at all lol.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Breizeredge on 03:26 AM - 07/21/19
@#$%, OBsIV Will need to do something because if XIM players  are going to be banned from their main game, they gonna lost the company.
Once respawn will find a way, others games will do the same, fornite, call of, etc...
You will see every XIM on any marketplace and no one will want to buy one.
They could easily detect it by the way. Simply by analyzing that a player is constantly walking at full speed, or looking around with specific pattern. It worked for me for a project I had in school, I had a rate of 92.7%  and  it gave some false positives.
And so what? Even if it gave 1000 false positive this is a the same with some anti cheat on PC, I had a false positive on Fortnite and I lost my account.. it was a long road to get it back, but it’s the case for many people.
So yes there are going to find a way to detect the xim and other device.
And when they will find a way, other device will be created, etc.. etc.. etc..
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: antithesis on 03:34 AM - 07/21/19
Calm down Henny Penny. XIM already has countermeasures and hasn't been detected in over a decade. If it was easy, it'd be done by now.

That also doesn't account for the fact that both PS4 and Xbox One have native m/kb support and licenced m/kb adapters. Do you really think that Respawn is going to block licenced gear? Why do you think Fortnite backed down?
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: The prodigy on 04:43 AM - 07/21/19
Respawn is going to succeed where Epic games has failed!  ;D ;D
What a joke it took these poor guys months to fix a simple disconnect issue (https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/square/000/017/354/elrisitas.jpg)
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 09:48 AM - 07/21/19
They could easily detect it by the way. Simply by analyzing that a player is constantly walking at full speed, or looking around with specific pattern. It worked for me for a project I had in school, I had a rate of 92.7%  and  it gave some false positives.
And so what? Even if it gave 1000 false positive this is a the same with some anti cheat on PC, I had a false positive on Fortnite and I lost my account.. it was a long road to get it back, but it’s the case for many people.

Are you a software engineer and/or do you run a game development studio? :) The reason I ask this is because you making some very bold assertions. You are talking about input patterns. As I mentioned, if you can't see differentiating patterns between the input types, then you can't be 100% certain. And yes, they need to be 100% certain. This isn't PC, console gamers will not be accepting of game developers putting out updates that would falsely ban them. That will destroy their game on console.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Od1n on 09:55 AM - 07/21/19
Hori will just knock at the Sony and Microsoft door and demand their officially licenced mouse and keyboard adapter to work again. Game developers have to agree to the rules of the console manufacturers and Sony/Microsoft will just tell Respawn to remove their policy.

Respawn might not be aware of that yet but if they do more research on the matter they will be. Until then this PR statement is meant to please the crowd, so nothing new really. They could be fine by separating the matchmaking but then again you have the false-positives that Obsiv already mentioned.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Delttaz on 04:14 PM - 07/21/19
Not sure if anybody saw this article from polygon. From just looking at the title makes me not want to even consider reading what they have to say. https://www.polygon.com/xbox-one/2019/7/21/20702969/apex-legends-cheating-keyboard-and-mouse-xbox-one-console-pc
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 04:24 PM - 07/21/19
Polygon is a joke, and I wouldn't waste my time.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Delttaz on 04:31 PM - 07/21/19
Polygon is a joke, and I wouldn't waste my time.
Fully agree with that. I actually went ahead and read it. Wasted 2 minutes of my life as they just refered to it as cheating and how it basically makes you a god with aim assist.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 04:31 PM - 07/21/19
This is interesting from the article: "Since launching in February, Apex Legends managers have touted the mass banning of cheaters and other malefactors; by May, they said a total of 770,000 players had been sanctioned in some form." That number is huge, which means they must have a massive player base. I was curious, so I looked around to find Apex Legends player statistics, I found what looked like reputable stats that say it's in excess of 50 million.

I know how many people have installed Apex Legends on their XIM APEX from our telemetry. The chances that a game would have a XIM player in it is near zero (not an exaggeration). It's ridiculous the level of outrage that is coming from the Apex Legends community.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Strykain on 04:41 PM - 07/21/19
I know how many people have installed Apex Legends on their XIM APEX from our telemetry. The chances that a game would have a XIM player in it is near zero (not an exaggeration). It's ridiculous the level of outrage that is coming from the Apex Legends community.

What do you expect? Everyone today thinks they're the next console Shroud, and anyone who beats them is clearly using some kind of device to get an upper hand. It's unfortunate that it's such a scapegoat these days, but I also don't deny how big of a smile I get when someone sends me a hate message complaining about the XIM.
Was it the reason I killed you when I had Purple Shield, maxed out R-301, and you were already taking damage from the Zone? Absolutely not, but in their mind it is~ Haha.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: BlueAid on 05:18 PM - 07/21/19
Years ago it was camping, then lag was the big one for early COD days, now it's accusing K&M.

I have noticed on some gaming subreddits (especially the Overwatch console subreddit) making low effort XIM posts will result in the threads getting deleted. Regular controller users are started to get irritated with the constant accusations going around. Hopefully it continues.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 05:37 PM - 07/21/19
Once again, whiny Xbox One users are @#$% about Mouse and Keyboard again. "Just play on PC" they scream and whine. Okay, but my friends don't have a PC. They have console. I wish people would stop being little bitches over this. They're not going to do anything. No one's going to ban ANYONE.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/cg46ts/apex_looking_at_stoping_kbm_users_on_consoles/
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Delttaz on 06:54 PM - 07/21/19
Honestly my number one complaint with all this trash talk towards XIM and other emulators is that no one does their research before making false claims on what they can and can't do.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: full58 on 07:22 PM - 07/21/19
Currently even the smallest amount of SAB causes sprinting to be canceled.

SAB is still on even if it's at 0. What's the highest value you can go before it happens? I know why it's cancelling and I can address it if need be.


For me using a d1sable style setup on common with 500hz responses rate, 3200 dpi, G502: I can only set SAB on the hip to 1 with out the sprint canceling. When set to 2 it will cancel about what feels like ~10 percent of the time. As I set it higher and higher it cancles the sprint more and more. SAB on ADS set at 200. Works great on ads
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 07:28 PM - 07/21/19
Interesting, so SAB has no issue with ADS at any value? Only hip?
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Od1n on 07:49 PM - 07/21/19
Interesting, so SAB has no issue with ADS at any value? Only hip?

Thats because in Apex Legends you cannot sprint while being in ADS, so of course only a HIP SAB value could cause the sprinting to cancel if you use a value that is high enough :)
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 08:30 PM - 07/21/19
"M&KB GIVES AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE!" Okay. Arcade sticks give a distinct advantage over controller players in fighting games. You want to talk about banning Arcade sticks too? "THAT'S DIFFERENT!!!!"

These kids raging about M&KB aren't nearly as good as they think they are, and they just want a scapegoat to avoid admitting that maybe the problem is the fact that they suck at FPS.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 08:47 PM - 07/21/19
Interesting, so SAB has no issue with ADS at any value? Only hip?

Thats because in Apex Legends you cannot sprint while being in ADS, so of course only a HIP SAB value could cause the sprinting to cancel if you use a value that is high enough :)

Great point! :-)

I have a private build out right now testing a fix for the sprint cancelation issue. I'll let everyone try it when it's verified fixed.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: piiwii on 09:30 PM - 07/21/19
I posted on the Siege Reddit about how they could reduce XIM usage on console.

I said if they introduced native KB&M support on console with separate match making, and provided it with really compelling features that would be KB&M **exclusive** (exclusive being the key word here), e.g. zero aim acceleration, ability to lean from the hip, that would be incentive enough for people to stop mixing with controller users. You'd never be able to eliminate it altogether, but it would reduce it significantly. People would then say yeah Fortnite has native support but people still use a XIM...that's because they didn't offer incentives to move over to native. My idea would be about providing incentives.

I can tell you now if you gave me these two incentives (no aim acceleration and leaning from the hip) I would stop using XIM for Siege completely and only use it for COD etc. There could be SO many things you could do in regards to KB&M exclusive features, such as de-coupling crouch from prone, single button binds etc.

Anyway no one wanted to hear it. I got down voted to hell. No one is interested in practical solutions, they're all backed into their ideological corners and have taken an extremest "nothing but a 100% ban will suffice" attitude, even though I've explained to them so many times it's just not technically feasible to do without false positives.

IMO my solution is the only solution. But as I said people just won't hear it. I'm happy with my XIM, so...meh I don't give a crap anyway.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 10:47 PM - 07/21/19
I was accused of "emotional blackmail" because I can't hold a controller for long periods of time, and products like the XIM would let me console game again, but I was accused of "wanting to cheat" and "emotionally blackmailing" people, because, you know.. GAMING COMMUNITY RISE UP.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 03:11 AM - 07/22/19
Respawn is going to succeed where Epic games has failed!  ;D ;D
What a joke it took these poor guys months to fix a simple disconnect issue (https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/square/000/017/354/elrisitas.jpg)
They'ved fixed it? I get Code: Leaf several times an hour.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 03:18 AM - 07/22/19
Was it the reason I killed you when I had Purple Shield, maxed out R-301, and you were already taking damage from the Zone? Absolutely not, but in their mind it is~ Haha.
;D
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 03:26 AM - 07/22/19
Not sure if anybody saw this article from polygon. From just looking at the title makes me not want to even consider reading what they have to say. https://www.polygon.com/xbox-one/2019/7/21/20702969/apex-legends-cheating-keyboard-and-mouse-xbox-one-console-pc
Yeah, Daily Star school of journalism: find a topic that appeals to the vocal minority (redditors in this case) and then spout crap without doing any research.  >:(

"Respawn community reps said that it would soon implement matchmaking that forced cheaters and spammers to play in matches with one another". What a load of bollocks! That's not what they said at all! Respawn basically said, we don't condone it and we're looking it to it. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 03:33 AM - 07/22/19
I said if they introduced native KB&M support on console with separate match making, and provided it with really compelling features that would be KB&M **exclusive** that would be incentive enough for people to stop mixing with controller users.
Totally. If KB&M was implemented on console so that it felt like PC (no AA, no dead zone, no acceleration, etc.) I would take up the option in a heartbeat. But I know that'll never happen, so until the 12th of never, I'll stick to the XIM without a genuine concern over being banned.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 04:10 AM - 07/22/19
Respawn gave their stance on cheating in their previous check-in (https://www.reddit.com/r/apexlegends/comments/cciyx6/712_respawn_checkin/). The bottom line was that there was no mention of any KB&M adapter, at all. Only one response out of the 1000 that the post recieved, mentioned the XIM.

When asked five months ago "XIM has now got a ST for Apex Legends - Respawn, you going to do anything about it?" they did not respond. But then, that post only got 12 replies. There's been 3 big posts over the last few weeks from the haters asking Respawn to kick XIMmers. They haven't responded. IMO, that's because they don't know how to and don't have the will or the resources to to find out how they can ban KB&M users.

Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: antithesis on 04:21 AM - 07/22/19
Let's not give Respawn the motivation. Two facts we know are very problematic for them -

1. Both XB1 and PS4 have officially licenced mouse & keyboard adapters.
2. Both XB1 and PS4 offer native mouse & keyboard libraries.

Respawn can't ban m/kb users, they'll be in breach of publishing ToS for both consoles. Their best option is to provide native m/kb. Unless they can filter m/kb users into separate lobbies with 100% certainty, nothing is going to happen. Nor should anything happen, this is mass hysteria over nothing.

IMHO, Respawn needs to understand that almost 0% of their player base are actual XIM users, so there's no tangible return on investment. They need to appreciate that XIM abides by all the same rules as a controller and can't magically transform a console game into a PC one. XIM is the same thing as a steering wheel or arcade stick, nothing more.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ceebs on 05:45 AM - 07/22/19
Both XB1 and PS4 have officially licenced mouse & keyboard adapters.
Both XB1 and PS4 offer native mouse & keyboard libraries.
Respawn needs to understand that almost 0% of their player base are actual XIM users...
Yeah, that too.  ;)
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: ThedirtyRabbit on 06:33 AM - 07/22/19
OBIV

I have no doubt your numbers are correct, with the likelyhood of some coming across a Xim user let alone  being killed by one. But this scapegoat has been going on for years. I saw the a huge tick in accusations with PuBG on console. Has any developer ever actually reached out to you so you could show them the point 0.01% of their population was using a Xim. You don't have to name anyone  but I'm curious I'd you were ever able to give someone some cold hard facts straight to the devs?
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: antithesis on 07:50 AM - 07/22/19
Just note that 0.01% is a total guess on my part.

Let's assume Apex Legends has 50,000,000 players and XIM Apex has sold 500,000 units. That's 0.01%.

I have no idea of accurate numbers for XIM Apex sales, but that figure assumes that every Apex buyer has played Apex Legends, which is nowhere near true. So it may in fact be far less than 0.01% and I doubt that it's more.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: oxylus on 08:26 AM - 07/22/19
Just found this link crazy what’s going on https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/xbox-one/2019/7/21/20702969/apex-legends-cheating-keyboard-and-mouse-xbox-one-console-pc
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: tepidblack on 09:06 AM - 07/22/19
Eurogamer have done an article on it if anyone wants to read:

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2019-07-21-respawn-is-investigating-ways-of-detecting-apex-legends-players-using-a-keyboard-and-mouse-on-console

I can’t say they’ve put in much effort but at least they aren’t giving into the “XIM is cheating ban them all reeeeeeeeeeee” hysteria
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 11:27 AM - 07/22/19
This was one of the responses I received from such an "inclusive community".

"Microsoft are catering to your needs with an officially sanctioned control method, but you're trying to lay a case out there on why the XIM should still be allowed. Although it sucks you're in the situation you are, we have to consider the greater good and although you're trying to steer the conversation back to yourself, I'm saying that in the broader context of the overall discussion, you're a very small minority case."

Yes, because paying $100 for a "base" controller, plus $40 or more for any other adaptive part to that said controller is something that's even REMOTELY feasible in my case being on Social Security and Disability. I could just as easily spend that $100 on a XIM and use equipment I already have laying around the house, and NOT have to spend anything extra. I like the IDEA of the adaptive controller, but the overall execution of it just sucks.

"The Greater Good". No one with any positive / good intentions I've known of (as of recent memory) has EVER used that phrase and has NOT been a douchebag. The mass hysteria over XIM and its users continue to baffle me.

I consider this a personal attack, because these people don't like certain users, and they're lumping those of us with particular hand disabilities and carpal tunnel (it's a @#$% to have, believe me) in with everyone else.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: martintheninja on 11:35 AM - 07/22/19
0.01% of people on reddit complaining about XIMers. That 0.01% are actually silver players.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: Bertuzzi1616 on 12:03 PM - 07/22/19
This was one of the responses I received from such an "inclusive community".

"Microsoft are catering to your needs with an officially sanctioned control method, but you're trying to lay a case out there on why the XIM should still be allowed. Although it sucks you're in the situation you are, we have to consider the greater good and although you're trying to steer the conversation back to yourself, I'm saying that in the broader context of the overall discussion, you're a very small minority case."

Yes, because paying $100 for a "base" controller, plus $40 or more for any other adaptive part to that said controller is something that's even REMOTELY feasible in my case being on Social Security and Disability. I could just as easily spend that $100 on a XIM and use equipment I already have laying around the house, and NOT have to spend anything extra. I like the IDEA of the adaptive controller, but the overall execution of it just sucks.

"The Greater Good". No one with any positive / good intentions I've known of (as of recent memory) has EVER used that phrase and has NOT been a douchebag. The mass hysteria over XIM and its users continue to baffle me.

I consider this a personal attack, because these people don't like certain users, and they're lumping those of us with particular hand disabilities and carpal tunnel (it's a @#$% to have, believe me) in with everyone else.
Mate, let it go. You've got yourself so worked up about this.

Quit engaging with the other side of this debate. No one is ever going to 'win'. You have your opinion and they have theirs. You're not going to convince anyone yours is the correct one. This is the internet, just let it go.. It's not worth any time or effort to engage in this type of discussion
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 12:12 PM - 07/22/19
This was one of the responses I received from such an "inclusive community".

"Microsoft are catering to your needs with an officially sanctioned control method, but you're trying to lay a case out there on why the XIM should still be allowed. Although it sucks you're in the situation you are, we have to consider the greater good and although you're trying to steer the conversation back to yourself, I'm saying that in the broader context of the overall discussion, you're a very small minority case."

Yes, because paying $100 for a "base" controller, plus $40 or more for any other adaptive part to that said controller is something that's even REMOTELY feasible in my case being on Social Security and Disability. I could just as easily spend that $100 on a XIM and use equipment I already have laying around the house, and NOT have to spend anything extra. I like the IDEA of the adaptive controller, but the overall execution of it just sucks.

"The Greater Good". No one with any positive / good intentions I've known of (as of recent memory) has EVER used that phrase and has NOT been a douchebag. The mass hysteria over XIM and its users continue to baffle me.

I consider this a personal attack, because these people don't like certain users, and they're lumping those of us with particular hand disabilities and carpal tunnel (it's a @#$% to have, believe me) in with everyone else.
Mate, let it go. You've got yourself so worked up about this.

Quit engaging with the other side of this debate. No one is ever going to 'win'. You have your opinion and they have theirs. You're not going to convince anyone yours is the correct one. This is the internet, just let it go.. It's not worth any time or effort to engage in this type of discussion

Objectively, I know you're right, but I can't help but take this as a personal attack. Watching developers pander and address the 0.0001% of whiners is how we got into this mess in the first place, and these people are going to continue to whine and stomp their feet until "something is done". Honestly, I don't even know if anything is going to come out of this, but seeing is how the Kaplan situation turned up nothing, and Epic's "solution" was basically solved overnight and they stopped, I highly doubt anything will come of this, but I really can't help it at times. It really DOES feel like a personal attack. That might be one of the main reasons why nothing will get done, because the disabled community will create such a stink over it that they'll have to back down.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: BUNGEE on 02:01 AM - 07/23/19
@#$%, this news is even hitting the biggest dutch, belgium and luxembourg technology website.
Kinda sad that these whiners with 0% knowledge how the xim actually works get such a big voice from the developers.

All the reactions are mouse keyboard (+ aim assist) > controllers. Like it's really a device that allows you to cheat.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: OBsIV on 08:33 AM - 07/23/19
It's universal that the media loves controversy -- even if it's fabricated.
Title: Re: Apex Legends developers address K&M on consoles
Post by: marvelouslie on 10:04 AM - 07/23/19
It's universal that the media loves controversy -- even if it's fabricated.

I don't even know why these devs listen to these whiners. XIM wasn't an issue at ALL on Xbox 360 and PS3. All of a sudden now that gaming has become "mainstream" and "more inclusive" is something like this an "issue", because modded controllers aren't a thing. Things like SCUF, the Razer Wolverine and Raiju, and the Elite controllers would technically have to be banned since they give an "unfair advantage". I continuously worry about the 0.0001% that these devs pay attention to, because sooner or later one of them WILL do something. They'll always listen to those that complain the loudest, even if that complaint is negligible.