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XIM 4 => XIM 4 Discussions => Topic started by: 3MIX_Edge on 03:19 PM - 03/22/14

Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 03:19 PM - 03/22/14
OBsIV and TEAM XIM, like the title asks, will there be a time where the XIM4 may reduce input lag to lower than the current 8ms it takes for the device to communicate/translate input via mouse and keyboard?

Perhaps it's something that could be worked on later in time once everything else is sorted?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Archa9ine on 03:52 PM - 03/22/14
i don't think the lag is that noticeable. but if it can be improved why not :D
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 03:54 PM - 03/22/14
If the USB rate is 125Hz I don't think they can. I've seen people say PS4 is higher polling rate, but don't know if that's USB or if it's confirmed. Haven't seen anything on xb1 at all. I'm sure obsiv or orbital could tell us for sure though.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 03:55 PM - 03/22/14
i don't think the lag is that noticeable. but if it can be improved why not :D

8ms alone isn't noticeable but in games like COD where reactions can make a world of difference it does.

Not because of the 8ms by itself, but add the controllers own input lag as well as our TV's or monitors and you can actually by loosing a frame every second (16.7ms) and that matters in games like COD.

If the USB rate is 125Hz I don't think they can

Ah I see...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: sp0t619 on 06:07 PM - 03/22/14
That's just some technical talk.. In reality, it's not noticeable one bit and something I don't care too much about.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Sully_pa on 06:45 PM - 03/22/14
Quote
8ms alone isn't noticeable but in games like COD where reactions can make a world of difference it does.

A world of difference to what? Going 25 and 3 instead of 24 and 4 ..... I mean if your a pro gamer that might matter for the money but for us everyday folk not so much.  ;)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 07:16 PM - 03/22/14
Whats the refresh rate of your monitor?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 07:24 PM - 03/22/14
A world of difference to what? Going 25 and 3 instead of 24 and 4 ..... I mean if your a pro gamer that might matter for the money but for us everyday folk not so much.  ;)
That's just some technical talk.. In reality, it's not noticeable one bit and something I don't care too much about.

Everybody has a different sensitivity to LAG, It may not be noticeable to you, but could be a huge difference to someone else. It's like when someone say's you can't see more then 60FPS/HZ, I just sit there & laugh cause I know it's not true.

When the XIM3 & EDGE got the "824EX Firmware" update to reduce the latency from 16ms to 8ms, It was a night & day difference for me, even for XIMMER's like Roads.

If I could have a firmware build with 4ms I would be delighted!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: abc123 on 10:26 PM - 03/22/14
the issue isn't the XIM's input lag it is the controllers default polling rate
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 10:44 PM - 03/22/14
the issue isn't the XIM's input lag it is the controllers default polling rate

That's why the OP asked the question in the 1st place :)

The DS4 polls at 250hz (4ms), Yet the XIM still has a 8ms delay.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: abc123 on 10:52 PM - 03/22/14
That's why the OP asked the question in the 1st place :)

The DS4 polls at 250hz (4ms), Yet the XIM still has a 8ms delay.

didn't see that in the original question, sorry for mis-information
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 12:28 AM - 03/23/14
Quote
The DS4 polls at 250hz (4ms), Yet the XIM still has a 8ms delay.

Obsiv, can you try? This makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 01:21 AM - 03/23/14
Quote
The DS4 polls at 250hz (4ms), Yet the XIM still has a 8ms delay.

Obsiv, can you try? This makes a lot of sense.
Indeed.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 04:28 AM - 03/23/14
Whats the refresh rate of your monitor?

Refresh rate is 2ms and input lag is about 3.8ms from some reviews.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 04:41 AM - 03/23/14
Thanks He4DHuNt3r for understanding where I'm coming from.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:59 AM - 03/23/14
let me make a serious question, does anyone notice the 8ms lag? or do you think it gets in the way in a meaningful way even if you can not put the finger on what is wrong?

if it's only in the search for perfection don't reply yes to the questions above. i'm all for taking things as close as possible to perfection, so in that sense i'm all for lowering the lag down from 8ms, but i honestly don't think it matters *a lot*.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 05:21 AM - 03/23/14
let me make a serious question, does anyone notice the 8ms lag? or do you think it gets in the way in a meaningful way even if you can not put the finger on what is wrong?

if it's only in the search for perfection don't reply yes to the questions above. i'm all for taking things as close as possible to perfection, so in that sense i'm all for lowering the lag down from 8ms, but i honestly don't think it matters *a lot*.

Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, 8ms alone does not matter, but it's not only 8ms. 16ms or more, makes a difference to me though.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 05:31 AM - 03/23/14
yeah of course. we have a big pipeline of things all adding their little lag.

and essentially there are 3 things that ideally we would perform a lot better if they were in sync: input, image, net output/input.

having lag between our commands and them being displayed on the image, or vice versa, and internet handling worsening things limits our performance a lot even if we don't conscientiously notice. and while in some cases it will have little to no impact in the big picture, in others it will be GG.

everyone involved needs to perfect their products to clear unnecessary lag out. TV/monitor folk, PC/console folk and peripheral (XIM) guys.. if each does its part, all will benefit.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 06:29 AM - 03/23/14
If I could have a firmware build with 4ms I would be delighted!

I'm extremely sensitivity to feeling input lag..
The aim should be to have it as low as is possible, it shouldn't even be a topic of discussion imo.

It should be above all else, i mean now that we have the bread and butter of console mouse and keyboard! Smart translators! Reducing input lag should be a priority imo.

===========================================

I mean i hope this isn't going to become a case of the XIM will only do what the weakest link in the chain can handle!
(I'm not trying to start a flame war! You can all please calm down and let me finish!)

I mean i'm on PS4, i can't see me wanting a XBONE, but even if i did only have the XBONE i would be happy with PS4 users somehow having a reduced input lag, if it meant that it was capable because of the polling rate of the actually console!

I mean when the XIM4 is plugged into the PS4 it shouldn't be tethered to the same setting of the XBONE
If it can handle more!? If this is the case i would like to see a separate build solely for PS4 in the future with lower input lag...

Its asking a lot, but dang were building the best of the best here aren't we?
Noting should hold the XIM back from feeling like the best peripheral..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: gunit2004 on 07:01 AM - 03/23/14
Wait, so the input lag on the XIM adds onto the input lag of the controller itself?

So 8ms on a 360 controller + 8ms from the XIM would = 16ms total of lag? Or would it just be 8ms and using the XIM would be pretty much the same as using a controller in terms of lag?

I am really curious about this.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 07:06 AM - 03/23/14
Wait, so the input lag on the XIM adds onto the input lag of the controller itself?

So 8ms on a 360 controller + 8ms from the XIM would = 16ms total of lag? Or would it just be 8ms and using the XIM would be pretty much the same as using a control in terms of lag?

I am really curious about this.

it doesn't add.
it would be the same 8ms as using the controller..


that's what i believe. not recalling sources but OBsIV has talked about this several times. i just can't remember where and what now..
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 07:10 AM - 03/23/14
no its 8ms overall but all posdible lags add up including publix Dale reflexes that get slower with age. :)
+1 the less lag the more connected the hand feels to the screen!

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 07:41 AM - 03/23/14
no its 8ms overall but all posdible lags add up including publix Dale reflexes that get slower with age. :)
+1 the less lag the more connected the hand feels to the screen!

Its all BS, my reflexes are as fast as i am interested, if i'm enjoying the game or "sweating" then my reflexes are on point.. If the game in general is poor and my interest in being good at it is low then so is my alertness and reflexes :D
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Od1n on 08:58 AM - 03/23/14
i dont know if its possible but it would be cool to have the XIM4 work with 4ms delay for the PS4, i dont want to be hold back just because of the Xbox One
4ms more or less isnt that much, but if it can be done then i say why not?

if its PS4 4ms + 8ms XIM then its even worse as you miss out 2 refresh frames of the controller
some lost potential imo

on the other hand my PS4 feels a lot more responsive with my XIM Edge than my Xbox360 did
i dont know if that already is the influence of the PS4 @ 4ms polling over the Xbox360 @ 8ms polling, but im sure there still is room for optimization

if the XIM4 really has a much stronger CPU that is actually capable of doing the BT workaround, then why shouldnt we go to 4ms?
the BT workaround is no longer needed, therefore why not use the CPU to do the calculations in half the time?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 09:30 AM - 03/23/14
guys the official age where reflexes start to drop is 25-26yo. now after you let that sink in well please also bear in mind the military and similar have people much older and still ranking higher than all the gaming pro's (not really true, just a figure of speech) ^^
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 09:32 AM - 03/23/14
Those figures are lies propagated by South Korea to get their youth to stop playing Starcraft and join the military
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 09:38 AM - 03/23/14
Those figures are lies propagated by South Korea to get their youth to stop playing Starcraft and join the military

actually i remember hearing someone in the US military of high ranking speaking about several stuff mentioning that some of the top pro's in gaming are actually above the average military (not just in pure reflexes but also in fast thinking and reaction along with dexterity/coordination). which shouldn't be surprising at all.. he made some joke on how he would like to recruit some of them to be pilots or something since they would most likely have a bright future as trained leashed killing machines. ^^
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 11:02 AM - 03/23/14
Those figures are lies propagated by South Korea to get their youth to stop playing Starcraft and join the military
OMG LOL... This is beyond true...

I'm sure Obsiv can get the xim4 running at a pool rate of 4 ms.  The processor inside Xim4 should be able to handle it. 

Just wondering on the technical side, even when you ran a mouse at 1000 hz for xim edge, would edge ignore 7 out of the 8 signals sent due to it's 8 ms polling rate or were those other 7 ms of movement actually processed?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 11:19 AM - 03/23/14
Guys, just an FYI, processors work as fast as they can all on their own. There's not a magic "make everything faster" button that OBsIV just hasn't pressed. Also, this almost certainly doesn't come down to a question of raw processor power.
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 11:26 AM - 03/23/14
I believe he had everything synced up at 125hz on purpose though because that's what Xbox 360 polled at, not because that's the hardware limit of the XIM.  All he has to say is that it's not possible and people won't ask anymore, then maybe surprise us with an update if it is :P
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Pneumatic on 11:40 AM - 03/23/14
As one of the 40-year-old gamers on this forum...  I would welcome every ms of improvement.  I have been thinking about upgrading my monitor to one of the 1ms monitors I see out there just to squeeze out as much lag as possible.   :)

Will it kelp?  Probably not, but it will give me one less thing to blame for sucking.
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 12:49 PM - 03/23/14

Guys, just an FYI, processors work as fast as they can all on their own. There's not a magic "make everything faster" button that OBsIV just hasn't pressed. Also, this almost certainly doesn't come down to a question of raw processor power.

That is true until there are no calculation loops like the one that was removed to get to 8ms.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 12:53 PM - 03/23/14

Guys, just an FYI, processors work as fast as they can all on their own. There's not a magic "make everything faster" button that OBsIV just hasn't pressed. Also, this almost certainly doesn't come down to a question of raw processor power.

That is true until there are no calculation loops like the one that was removed to get to 8ms.

Right, but then you'd need twice the processor to make your code run twice as fast, assuming we're really now talking about code that runs in linear time or better.

Again, I highly doubt that getting this to be faster comes down to a processor problem.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:56 PM - 03/23/14
I believe he had everything synced up at 125hz on purpose though because that's what Xbox 360 polled at, not because that's the hardware limit of the XIM.  All he has to say is that it's not possible and people won't ask anymore, then maybe surprise us with an update if it is :P

This, OBsIV is clearly busy of late, but i would like to know if this is possible.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 01:53 PM - 03/23/14
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 02:05 PM - 03/23/14
and there you have it folks.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 02:07 PM - 03/23/14
Yeah would be hell of a work and high risk. Better things on the list I guess.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 02:21 PM - 03/23/14
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

I have no idea how coding or basically anything to do with how the software works alongside the hardware in the XIM.
So i ask you to forgive my stupidity on the matter!

But how hard would it be in future iterations of the XIM to have the software function in a way that things like this can be tweaked?
I mean you can say it's ambiguous to try and half the current input delay, but every single element of PC gaming is based on the pursuit of more speed and less lag, less input lag! less server lag less monitor lag! less peripheral lag!

In an idea world! everything would poll at 1000HZ everything would have a sub 1ms response time!
I mean i understand now that its locked! But is this not also a future goal of the XIM?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 02:24 PM - 03/23/14
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

So in a nutshell you can't ever lower the input lag from the XIM to less than 8ms with everything the XIM already does?

Also that 8ms from the XIM is an addition to the controllers 8ms on the XB1 and the 4ms from the PS4 and whatever people's TV's and monitors are, is that correct?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 02:48 PM - 03/23/14
3MIX_Edge, the input lag if you think about it this way will be a constant variable for your monitor.  Technically the amount of lag you'll experience will never be any higher than 16 ms if you're running on a 60 Hz monitor or 8 ms if you're running a 120 hz monitor. 

The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.  You're more likely to sense the PS4's or Xbone's frame rate drops than to feel that minimum 8 ms lag from Xim4. 

Will Xim4 add a tiny bit of lag, sure but is it going to be significant? Probably not especially with, if I understood correctly according to Obsiv, the Xim4's polling drift system which will feed info exactly at the right time when the system wants an input.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 02:56 PM - 03/23/14
Well whatever it is, I'm noticing a benefit when I now play COD Ghosts on the PC as opposed to the XB1, same mouse and keyboard, same monitor and yet I can notice a benefit and I'm even winning more up close guns fights that I ust cannot win on the XB1.

I don't have Ghosts on PS4 so cannot tell.

It is what it is, 16ms+ is too much input lag, especially for a rusher like me. I may just go exclusive titles for consoles and get the FPS titles on PC.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 03:04 PM - 03/23/14
Well whatever it is, I'm noticing a benefit when I now play COD Ghosts on the PC as opposed to the XB1, same mouse and keyboard, same monitor and yet I can notice a benefit and I'm even winning more up close guns fights that I ust cannot win on the XB1.

I don't have Ghosts on PS4 so cannot tell.

It is what it is, 16ms+ is too much input lag, especially for a rusher like me. I may just go exclusive titles for consoles and get the FPS titles on PC.
Trust me I know what you mean and its the same feeling I get out of BF4.  Its just like a few hairs quicker and it does give off a different feeling.  The thing also that could be affecting it might be just the fact that PCs can poll at 1000 hz just because they can handle mouse drivers very well (duh its native LOL) and also PCs are generally more powerful than the either the Xbox One and PS4. 

Just out of curiosity, whats your monitor Hz rating?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 03:09 PM - 03/23/14
Just 60Hz.

I play PC and consoles on the same monitor.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 03:14 PM - 03/23/14
i think your xbone is to blame and not the XIM really.. i know the game is more or less stable but i'm betting your PC is taking walks in the park with it. those fps drops and instability will mess you up.


also bear in mind you are not using the same look mechanic on both versions of the game. PC version's a clean pure mechanic where your mouse and OS and the ones dictating how you move. on console however there is a lot the game is doing to the movement that the XIM is then undoing within limitations.. it's not fair to compare really, the simple fact we *can* compare in a meaningful way is just a testament of how good the XIM really is...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 03:16 PM - 03/23/14
Ahhhh well hmm 60 hz should run fine on Xbox One since its preset max is just 60 fps for COD ghosts... You might actually be experiencing more console lag than the lag put out by Xim4E.  I know for a fact (my xbone does this too) frame rate on xbox one just is kinda floaty meaning at one point it might be blazing at 60 fps and then it'll just drop to like 29 fps... Your PC might be fairing better by staying up in the mid to low 50s even. 

Here's a test to see if its truly Xim4E's lag that you're feeling.  Take a game of COD Ghosts on PC and set your mouse's polling rate to 60 hz (if possible) or some polling rate around this area.  If you feel a significant difference in your gaming, you my friend might have the eyes of a hawk lol and you're probably more sensitive to lag more than other people.

I also agree with AK in terms of the look mechanics post
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: abc123 on 03:18 PM - 03/23/14
I don't think the issue is with the XIM code...Assumptions likely were made and thereby it is likely just an issue with changing the root functionality of the XIM device.  Perhaps at sometime they will go back and add variables to the low level speed and refresh rates but honestly you likely won't notice the difference between 4-8ms.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 03:27 PM - 03/23/14
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Pneumatic on 03:32 PM - 03/23/14
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3

This has some interesting info on the subject...

http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_can_humans_see.htm
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 03:40 PM - 03/23/14
The average human eye can't really detect anything past 60 frames per second.  Now what the human eye can detect is lets say you're running at 60 fps but then it drops down to ohh, 47 fps, that will be a visual obscurity.   

I'm sorry, i cba finding the proof but basically this is WRONG!

I don't want to get into a debate with you, you seem like a nice person! lol
But this is probably one of the most ill informed tid bits of information floating around the interwebz.

There were studies to do with moving pictures, and all this stems from the research done to find out at how many frames the eye starts perceiving fluid motion.

I play PC regularly i can tell the difference between 30fps 60fps 125fps 250fps and 500fps past that it all looks the same to me!

I can also tell the difference between 50Hz 60Hz 75Hz 120Hz < I've not seen a monitor @144Hz personally with mine own eyes, but i'd wager a large pot of cash to say i could tell the difference between 120Hz and 144Hz?

Please cease and desist with this false information immediately i'm so sick of seeing it :D <3
Sorry I think I was slightly misunderstood by my post, I meant in regards to that 3MIX's posts about that the human eye is more sensitive to FPS drops than to actual fast paced Hz refresh rates which was the point I was trying to make.  This is why you're able to discern even between 60 hz to a 120 hz monitor. Even though they aren't side by side, you're able to make out a difference because one is noticeably faster than the other from your previous experiences. 

In pharmacy school from what I remember, the human eye doesn't just sense at a stable 60 hz.  It actually depends on lighting (moving from light to dark, dark to light), the actual amount of myelination the person carries for their optical nerves (trust me this can actually vary quite a bit due to saltatory conduction lol) which is why 60 hz was just a generalization I made.  Again I might be completely wrong about 60 hz being the max but I was just trying to use 60 hz an example based on 3MIX_Edge's monitor. 
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 03:58 PM - 03/23/14
guys guys, it's really simple:

regardless of how many frames per second we can see, it's easy to perceive differences above that framerate. movement is a wonderful thing, and while you might not see more individual frames, the combined result of seeing more frames changing more rapidly leads to noticeable differences and effects.



when we see a moving image, the difference between something that is blurry and something that is not can not be apparent but can also still be noticed. fighting game nerds proved this with Plasma vs LCD when the jumping animation of the char in printscreens was blurry on LCD(@60Hz) while on Plasma(@120Hz) you would not see any blur on the prints and just saw the animation mid way.

so during game play, to the human eye, in both setups the animation is just a blur. you see the jump and the char moving but little detail. yet, during play in the heat of the moment that tiny "invisible" difference (or rather others like it) turns to a noticeable disconnect between animation and input (not to mention you still perceive one thing to be more blurry than the other)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:30 PM - 03/23/14
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

So it's possible, But could/will cause problems?? ???

I'm not quite sure what's so different about this & the 824EX drop that removed 8ms of additional input lag from before :(

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 10:49 PM - 03/23/14
He4DHuNt3r, what you are talking about is different. Prior to that build, mouse was polled every other USB update cycle in order to better support low-DPI mice (this means every 16ms). It was then changed to every USB update cycle (i.e. 8ms).
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: anony on 12:02 AM - 03/24/14
But obsiv, 4ms makes a decent difference when the milliseconds stack up especially with TV lag. Can't this be applied in a beta once all the fundamentals are done and xim4 is out?

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 01:43 AM - 03/24/14
I´d call this the 4ms uprising. I cant chime in as the 200ms lag compensation is so much taking me from behind in any game maybe except PvZ, I simply can not chime in on 4ms. Good luck boys.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Od1n on 05:06 AM - 03/24/14
while 4ms would sound nice i prefer to have a stable connection to the XIM
all the XIM2/XIM360 gamer do know what a refreshrate of 120 or 145 can cause once in a while, quite annoying tbh
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: BroTsla on 05:43 AM - 03/24/14
But obsiv, 4ms makes a decent difference when the milliseconds stack up especially with TV lag. Can't this be applied in a beta once all the fundamentals are done and xim4 is out?

This is how I feel, 8ms by itself isn't bad but stacked up with tv lag or whatever else just adds to it.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 07:01 AM - 03/24/14
I suppose what we are lacking is an explanation of why it can't work?
Or how it would make things unstable if it was applied.


We're not against you here OBsIV, i remember the days when you used to give full explanations and talk us through the process! Now don't mistake me for being immature here and throwing a tantrum.

I full understand you're a very busy man, much more then the XIM1/2 days.
And i also understand that you have to be careful not to give away too much to the competition.

But the best way to stop us harassing you about achievable goals is to break it down for us!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Sully_pa on 08:01 AM - 03/24/14
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Fp5_e5aPqUY/SVkWA1zJUbI/AAAAAAAAG-4/mKu3y1vyEbY/s400/deadhorse2.jpg)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 08:56 AM - 03/24/14
OBsIV probably isn't going to tell you why it can't work because that would likely involve explaining a great deal about how the communication synchronization works. Competitors hawk these forums too heavily today to be giving away valuable information like that. He's already given you a pretty solid reason - it would be a huge undertaking and has a decent possibility of destabilizing the whole system.

Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement, no matter what lag other parts of your system might have. You might think you can feel it, but I might be so brazen as to suggest you're falling victim to a placebo effect.

Further, OBsIV isn't going to do this because even if you do feel it, not enough people would. Even once everything is stable there are new features and suggestions to implement that will benefit a larger portion of the player base than the handful of superhumans we have among us who can feel 4ms.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:05 AM - 03/24/14
I second the placebo effect.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:10 AM - 03/24/14
OBsIV probably isn't going to tell you why it can't work because that would likely involve explaining a great deal about how the communication synchronization works. Competitors hawk these forums too heavily today to be giving away valuable information like that. He's already given you a pretty solid reason - it would be a huge undertaking and has a decent possibility of destabilizing the whole system.

Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement, no matter what lag other parts of your system might have. You might think you can feel it, but I might be so brazen as to suggest you're falling victim to a placebo effect.

Further, OBsIV isn't going to do this because even if you do feel it, not enough people would. Even once everything is stable there are new features and suggestions to implement that will benefit a larger portion of the player base than the handful of superhumans we have among us who can feel 4ms.

Some good points made, and as i said we wouldn't get answer for the reason of competitors staling the forums. Delay is delay if it can be reduced it should.

Annnyway, cant you have one solid build tweaking all the main aspects and have a second one that you tweak in your free time adding balls to the wall features. I mean why can't you have multiple versions? Or is there some unified law of the universe saying one must only ever have one copy of said software.

Ctrl+c +v brv
Title: Re: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:13 AM - 03/24/14
OBsIV probably isn't going to tell you why it can't work because that would likely involve explaining a great deal about how the communication synchronization works. Competitors hawk these forums too heavily today to be giving away valuable information like that. He's already given you a pretty solid reason - it would be a huge undertaking and has a decent possibility of destabilizing the whole system.

Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement, no matter what lag other parts of your system might have. You might think you can feel it, but I might be so brazen as to suggest you're falling victim to a placebo effect.

Further, OBsIV isn't going to do this because even if you do feel it, not enough people would. Even once everything is stable there are new features and suggestions to implement that will benefit a larger portion of the player base than the handful of superhumans we have among us who can feel 4ms.

Some good points made, and as i said we wouldn't get answer for the reason of competitors staling the forums. Delay is delay if it can be reduced it should.

Annnyway, cant you have one solid build tweaking all the main aspects and have a second one that you tweak in your free time adding balls to the wall features. I mean why can't you have multiple versions? Or is there some unified law of the universe saying one must only ever have one copy of said software.

Ctrl+c +v brv

Its a matter of time management and priorities. He isn't going to create multiple iterations and start splitting his time between a release candidate and a one off nuts release.

Perhaps in R and D in the future after release and stability. But certainly not before.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Sully_pa on 09:16 AM - 03/24/14
OBsIV probably isn't going to tell you why it can't work because that would likely involve explaining a great deal about how the communication synchronization works. Competitors hawk these forums too heavily today to be giving away valuable information like that. He's already given you a pretty solid reason - it would be a huge undertaking and has a decent possibility of destabilizing the whole system.

Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement, no matter what lag other parts of your system might have. You might think you can feel it, but I might be so brazen as to suggest you're falling victim to a placebo effect.

Further, OBsIV isn't going to do this because even if you do feel it, not enough people would. Even once everything is stable there are new features and suggestions to implement that will benefit a larger portion of the player base than the handful of superhumans we have among us who can feel 4ms.

Some good points made, and as i said we wouldn't get answer for the reason of competitors staling the forums. Delay is delay if it can be reduced it should.

Annnyway, cant you have one solid build tweaking all the main aspects and have a second one that you tweak in your free time adding balls to the wall features. I mean why can't you have multiple versions? Or is there some unified law of the universe saying one must only ever have one copy of said software.

Ctrl+c +v brv

(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/27175755.jpg)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 09:16 AM - 03/24/14
What Rook said. Of course it's possible to have two builds of the software. But the XIM team has very finite resources and has to use its time wisely, and spending a bunch of time on something like this probably doesn't fall under the scope of "wisely."
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 09:19 AM - 03/24/14
Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement

Agreed. XIM isn't adding on top of existing latency. It synchronizes with the console. Xbox One and 360 has an 8ms USB poll rate. That means your mouse input will be delivered to the console with a delay guaranteed no longer than 8ms -- which is exactly the same as the controller. PS3 is 10ms. PS4 can be 4ms, but, we chose it to be 8ms because we believe the benefit of shaving 4ms doesn't outweigh the added complexity to an already complex (and thoroughly tested) system.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:21 AM - 03/24/14
/endthread
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:11 AM - 03/24/14
Also, guys, let's be serious, you're not going to feel a 4ms improvement

Agreed. XIM isn't adding on top of existing latency. It synchronizes with the console. Xbox One and 360 has an 8ms USB poll rate. That means your mouse input will be delivered to the console with a delay guaranteed no longer than 8ms -- which is exactly the same as the controller. PS3 is 10ms. PS4 can be 4ms, but, we chose it to be 8ms because we believe the benefit of shaving 4ms doesn't outweigh the added complexity to an already complex (and thoroughly tested) system.


So it's perfectly fine to have the XIM "perfectly synchronised" with the XBOX controller, but not the DS4?

Gotcha.

Actually, you know what? I retract that!

I mean its not your fault two different companies decided to have the devices poll at different rates. I mean this truly is a console problem!

Why on earth aren't we in a console generation where we have controllera with 1ms response time that poll at 1000Hz?

I guess i owe you an apology OBsIV, sorry for being a brat but honesty!?
I just want the product to perform at the very limits of what it can do!

And my uneducated guess is to clamber for the response time to be lower. I apologise...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 10:26 AM - 03/24/14
i know exactly how to solve this so everyone is happy:

we gather all the XIMers that both want the 4ms thing or that "don't". Chain OBsIV to a pole in the middle, higher up than what anyone can reach. and at the sound of a whistle everyone starts killing each other. who ever stands last gets to free OBsIV and thus, as a reward, OBsIV will do their wish of working the 4ms or not.

since the people who can feel the 4ms different should be faster, they will likely win so those will be happy.
opposing faction is too slow and will be dead so, all happy as well.

people like me that would like the 4ms but can't be bothered with it will cheer and be happy either way.
people that are indifferent but that defend sticking to 8ms should be persecuted and have their hand cirurgically removed and replaced with analog sticks as thumbs and buttons as fingers so they spend the rest of their lives playing shooters without mice in agony.


roads would be the ref.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:38 AM - 03/24/14
So it's perfectly fine to have the XIM "perfectly synchronised" with the XBOX controller, but not the DS4?

In this case, yes, because nobody should care about 4ms.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:43 AM - 03/24/14
Ak-as dude your head is rhubarb mateeeee! Lol.

@singlecoilpickup I know i know, but i do care, i wish i never! But i just do.. It's the way PC gaming has made me! Everything needs to be Optimal...
Title: Re: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 10:46 AM - 03/24/14
Ak-as dude your head is rhubarb mateeeee! Lol.

@singlecoilpickup I know i know, but i do care, i wish i never! But i just do.. It's the way PC gaming has made me! Everything needs to be Optimal...

But that's just it. The current conditions are optimal. Going beyond that will destabilize the XIM and controller interaction, and for a gain that I highly doubt anyone would even notice.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:46 AM - 03/24/14
Ak-as dude your head is rhubarb mateeeee! Lol.

@singlecoilpickup I know i know, but i do care, i wish i never! But i just do.. It's the way PC gaming has made me! Everything needs to be Optimal...

PC gaming has nothing to do with it. You can't feel 4ms unless you have a reaction time that's better than any human whose reaction time has ever been tested.

In short, no offense, but this "need" is entirely in your head.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 10:51 AM - 03/24/14
because nobody should care about 4ms.

don't tell people what they should or should not care. not everyone is the same, doing the same, in the same places,etc. i do believe there are more pressing changes that need to be made however.


i think wireless PS4 support would please a lot of people and be a real asset to draw people into the XIM.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:57 AM - 03/24/14
because nobody should care about 4ms.

don't tell people what they should or should not care. not everyone is the same, doing the same, in the same places,etc. i do believe there are more pressing changes that need to be made however.


i think wireless PS4 support would please a lot of people and be a real asset to draw people into the XIM.

Ak, the wireless thing is totally different. You're comparing apples to oranges.

No human can feel 4ms. Anyone who thinks they can is kidding themselves. Therefore, I'm going to go ahead and tell people they shouldn't care bout 4ms, but thanks for your concern.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:06 AM - 03/24/14
Ak-as dude your head is rhubarb mateeeee! Lol.

@singlecoilpickup I know i know, but i do care, i wish i never! But i just do.. It's the way PC gaming has made me! Everything needs to be Optimal...

PC gaming has nothing to do with it. You can't feel 4ms unless you have a reaction time that's better than any human whose reaction time has ever been tested.

In short, no offense, but this "need" is entirely in your head.

I know it is buddy ::) :D i thought the way i wrote that made it sound more like "the need" is more like the bane of my life when it comes to gaming!

It is in my head i wish it wasn't..

Having finite numbers and figures makes you face the real culprit of your bad games! "YOU!"

@Rookcheck i understand! Honestly i do..

This is hypothetical:

If there was two versions of the XIM4 software that you could download, both exactly the same apart from one having 8ms and one having 4ms response time! The one with 4ms would get more downloads!

Lets take this theory further!

If those versions were locked to specific consoles!
e.g 4ms = PS4 and 8ms = XBONE

Over the life cycle of this current gen how many people would convert to PS4 or use there PS4 more becuase of that one! Claimed seemingly insignificant detail...

I would love to see that i really would.

But we are here, and that is fantasy land, like everything else in the hardware software world! I'm happy with 8ms i'll be quite now.

:(
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 11:08 AM - 03/24/14
Yeah, it's just not going to happen because there are, quite simply, bigger fish to fry with much bigger gains for a much wider audience.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 11:09 AM - 03/24/14
Ak, the wireless thing is totally different. You're comparing apples to oranges.

No human can feel 4ms. Anyone who thinks they can is kidding themselves. Therefore, I'm going to go ahead and tell people they shouldn't care bout 4ms, but thanks for your concern.

i'm not comparing sh1t. i was saying i thought XIM team's time would be better spent with one thing instead of the other due to effort-result ratios.

i remember some years ago hearing people say something almost equal but instead of '4ms' it was 60fps. now it's largely accepted by most that going north of 60fps has benefits. not because we can see much more than 60fps, but because of small nuances we can feel the existence of without being easy to pinpoint them. (again, for clarity's sake, remember my opinion is the 4ms change should not be done as of now)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: BionicTbag on 11:10 AM - 03/24/14
As one of the 40-year-old gamers on this forum...  I would welcome every ms of improvement.  I have been thinking about upgrading my monitor to one of the 1ms monitors I see out there just to squeeze out as much lag as possible.   :)

Will it kelp?  Probably not, but it will give me one less thing to blame for sucking.

LOL, then there will only be you to blame = depression of old age :)


i dont know if its possible but it would be cool to have the XIM4 work with 4ms delay for the PS4, i dont want to be hold back just because of the Xbox One4ms more or less isnt that much, but if it can be done then i say why not?if its PS4 4ms + 8ms XIM then its even worse as you miss out 2 refresh frames of the controllersome lost potential imoon the other hand my PS4 feels a lot more responsive with my XIM Edge than my Xbox360 didi dont know if that already is the influence of the PS4 @ 4ms polling over the Xbox360 @ 8ms polling, but im sure there still is room for optimizationif the XIM4 really has a much stronger CPU that is actually capable of doing the BT workaround, then why shouldnt we go to 4ms?the BT workaround is no longer needed, therefore why not use the CPU to do the calculations in half the time?


I really would hope it would work this way!


XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.


so this means that even though the PS4 can run at  4ms, its running at 8ms due to XIM timing?





Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 11:13 AM - 03/24/14
i'm not comparing sh1t. i was saying i thought XIM team's time would be better spent with one thing instead of the other due to effort-result ratios.

i remember some years ago hearing people say something almost equal but instead of '4ms' it was 60fps. now it's largely accepted by most that going north of 60fps has benefits. not because we can see much more than 60fps, but because of small nuances we can feel the existence of without being easy to pinpoint them. (again, for clarity's sake, remember my opinion is the 4ms change should not be done as of now)

Another apples to oranges comparison. You're comparing something that occurs over the span of one full second, which a human can perceive, to something that happens in 1/250th of a second, which a human cannot perceive.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:17 AM - 03/24/14
Lets not let this get out of hand, we had a nice discussion.
Both sides for and against gave there opinion!

A conclusion was met, lets leave it there.
Any decent mod would lock this now, purely out of caution.

There is nothing more to discuss here.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 11:31 AM - 03/24/14
Another apples to oranges comparison. You're comparing something that occurs over the span of one full second, which a human can perceive, to something that happens in 1/250th of a second, which a human cannot perceive.

A) this is the FIRST comparison.
B) the comparison was between what people said and what you said.
C) you should explain to Sony and Oculus why they are polling 1000Hz when clearly no one can perceive tracking above 1Hz, according to you.

let's end this back and forth please as it's pointless. during gameplay some players 'feel' the consequences of things they couldn't possibly individually perceive, as hindering their gameplay.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 12:02 PM - 03/24/14
C) you should explain to Sony and Oculus why they are polling 1000Hz when clearly no one can perceive tracking above 1Hz, according to you.

If you think this is what I'm saying, then you don't even slightly understand what I'm saying and there's certainly no sense in continuing this conversation.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:13 PM - 03/24/14
C) you should explain to Sony and Oculus why they are polling 1000Hz when clearly no one can perceive tracking above 1Hz, according to you.

If you think this is what I'm saying, then you don't even slightly understand what I'm saying and there's certainly no sense in continuing this conversation.

I suppose there was more to say after all!

Of singlecoil i agree Ak-as doesnt get where you are coming from, but he has inadvertently raised another key point!

All our input devices for gaming except the microphone, are represented visually! And although 4ms of input lag would be in imperceptible! You have to admit and anything that shaves time off getting your cross hair to move at exactly the same time as you hand moves the mouse! Is important!

I get that its not important enough, but AK is right, the road that VR is taking us down is leading us to better responce times on pannels! The want the whole thing to be under 16ms do you think when they get to 16ms all round unput delay they will say its good enough IF they could squeeze alittle more out?

Now i get it, it's not as important here, because other factors are in place that mean on this occasion 8ms is working for you instead of against you..

But he is making a good point.

When i first heard about low persistence, i immediately grinned and realized this would come to gaming monitors shortly too!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: BionicTbag on 12:13 PM - 03/24/14
nB4
(http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Locks_and_Keys/Silent_lock.gif)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:58 PM - 03/24/14
nB4
(http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Everything_Else/Locks_and_Keys/Silent_lock.gif)

LOL what? I didnt offend anyone there did i?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: BionicTbag on 01:06 PM - 03/24/14
LOL what? I didnt offend anyone there did i?


not that I can tell, its just this topic and the derailment already... its just funny.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/1906_earthquake_train.jpg)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 01:22 PM - 03/24/14
Not at all, we are perfectly on track!
We are discussing the importance of achieving low ms response times!

This would lead us to the conclusion of whether or not it was important to implement!

I believe it should be something to consider in the future!
A seperate PS4 build...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 01:38 PM - 03/24/14
A separate PS4 build means the XIM team has to do twice the maintenance when it comes time to do releases. Again, not a feasible endeavor for 4ms of improvement on one (out of four) platforms.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 01:42 PM - 03/24/14
yeah 2 builds will never happen. and for good reason
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 01:58 PM - 03/24/14
Go back to arguing you two! Lol :/
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 02:14 PM - 03/24/14
people complain when i argue, now people complain when i don't.. sheesh no pleasing you people!  ;D
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 02:19 PM - 03/24/14
I'm thrilled that this project and our community has gotten to the point of literally critiquing at the millisecond level -- it shows the level of quality that has been achieved and how deep people go with this project. Please understand that at this point we don't believe the changes being discussed here would have an impact greater than the development and test resources required for the change. I'm not saying we'd never do it. But, it's certainly lower priority given all the other things we need to do.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 02:26 PM - 03/24/14
does english have a word for someone swooping in and ending a seemingly-never-ending war leaving everyone unwilling to raise their arms?

i mean, that last post by OB is more effective than locking the thread as far as the discussion goes.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 02:34 PM - 03/24/14
If one day you do it Obsiv, dont tell them, I want to see if they feel it.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Pneumatic on 02:41 PM - 03/24/14
does english have a word for someone swooping in and ending a seemingly-never-ending war leaving everyone unwilling to raise their arms?

i mean, that last post by OB is more effective than locking the thread as far as the discussion goes.

"PWND"
Title: Re: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 02:42 PM - 03/24/14
does english have a word for someone swooping in and ending a seemingly-never-ending war leaving everyone unwilling to raise their arms?

i mean, that last post by OB is more effective than locking the thread as far as the discussion goes.

"PWND"

If it were 2003 maybe.
Title: Re: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Pneumatic on 02:44 PM - 03/24/14
does english have a word for someone swooping in and ending a seemingly-never-ending war leaving everyone unwilling to raise their arms?

i mean, that last post by OB is more effective than locking the thread as far as the discussion goes.

"PWND"

If it were 2003 maybe.

It's still applicable until a better word is developed. :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 02:46 PM - 03/24/14
If one day you do it Obsiv, dont tell them, I want to see if they feel it.

OH PLEASE DO THAT! it should be a crime not to do it!

"PWND"

ahahahah it works! being a gamer haven here i think it's also adequate. gotta say i was expecting something more Medieval though but i fear there's no word to describe exactly what i wanted ^^

It's still applicable until a better word is developed. :)

exactly!
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 03:19 PM - 03/24/14
I'm thrilled that this project and our community has gotten to the point of literally critiquing at the millisecond level -- it shows the level of quality that has been achieved and how deep people go with this project. Please understand that at this point we don't believe the changes being discussed here would have an impact greater than the development and test resources required for the change. I'm not saying we'd never do it. But, it's certainly lower priority given all the other things we need to do.

I will wait till the XIM4 is released & in my hands before I start nagging you guys again for a 4ms firmware drop :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 03:22 PM - 03/24/14
If one day you do it Obsiv, dont tell them, I want to see if they feel it.

LOL!

@Headhunterz how come you asked? Why did you say you would be happy if it was 4ms and not 8ms? Is the xime/4 beta a "TINY" bit laggy to you or something?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 03:39 PM - 03/24/14
No honestly I want to know if you freaks feel 4ms.
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 03:45 PM - 03/24/14
@Headhunterz how come you asked? Why did you say you would be happy if it was 4ms and not 8ms? Is the xime/4 beta a "TINY" bit laggy to you or something?

XIM has always been a "TINY" bit laggy for me, It was worse when it had 16ms delay. When I switch from 125hz to 500/100hz polling rate on my PC, I can "FEEL" the difference in tracking & responsiveness with my mouse when playing, It's definitely not some "placebo" effect like some of the other guy's make it out to be. It's the same thing when I switch from 60hz/FPS to 120hz/FPS on my monitor, Night & Day difference to me :D

I'm just picky tbh, I want nothing but the BEST performance when playing :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 03:59 PM - 03/24/14
The lagginess you're feeling is more likely due to consoles having a substantially slower look mechanic than PCs. I highly doubt it's from 4ms in the response time.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:01 PM - 03/24/14
so basically you were giggling with popcorn or something watching us go at it trying to defend the difference is relevant.. you sadist!  ;D


no, seriously, what age are you He4DHuNt3r? (i know it's not something i can blame to some people being too old to notice since i'm pretty young myself but hey.. still curious)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:04 PM - 03/24/14
The lagginess you're feeling is more likely due to consoles having a substantially slower look mechanic than PCs. I highly doubt it's from 4ms in the response time.


not only that.. there are more things to add like framerate issues, look mechanic issues... but if you never cut any of them, you will never solve it. some issues we can't cut (like consoles being underpowered in a way) but we should cut everywhere we can. in due time of course.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: PS3_UK on 04:08 PM - 03/24/14
Anyone who claims to be able to feel 4ms is a liar, plain and simple. However, despite this, I would like to see a patch to reduce lag to 4ms. The point is to try eliminate lag as far as possible at every step of the input chain.

If you say '4ms doesn't matter' and take the same approach in relation to your XIM, your wireless mouse, your monitor, your capture  device which the signal is fed through and your internet then it all adds up to something which you can feel.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:14 PM - 03/24/14
thus, those are the 2nd words out of the new MVP that was born. this thread is the gift that keeps on giving..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:21 PM - 03/24/14
The lagginess you're feeling is more likely due to consoles having a substantially slower look mechanic than PCs. I highly doubt it's from 4ms in the response time.

Maybe, But I can get pretty much the same sensitivity I use on BF4 PC, The only difference is the responsiveness of the mouse.

Anyone who claims to be able to feel 4ms is a liar, plain and simple.

Well, I feel a difference between 125hz to 500hz pretty easily so...... yeah lol

no, seriously, what age are you He4DHuNt3r? (i know it's not something i can blame to some people being too old to notice since i'm pretty young myself but hey.. still curious)


I am 21 with autism, So mentally I'm like 16 haha ;D
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:24 PM - 03/24/14
rofl ty. what i would like to see now is if toys can notice the difference when PB eventually makes the 4ms shift. also this debate needs more Xog..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 04:29 PM - 03/24/14
That laggyness you describe I've always felt also.
Is it not something to do with the console being locked at 60fps vsync as opposed to PC vsync off?

Go COD: GHOSTS PC flick vsync on, that still feels a tiny bit snappier / faster then xim.
Oh and BTW i find playing with VSYNC on unplayable...

So it says a lot for xim...

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:45 PM - 03/24/14
That laggyness you describe I've always felt also.
Is it not something to do with the console being locked at 60fps vsync as opposed to PC vsync off?

Go COD: GHOSTS PC flick vsync on, that still feels a tiny bit snappier / faster then xim.
Oh and BTW i find playing with VSYNC on unplayable...

So it says a lot for xim...

It probably is V-Sync, I can't stand it on PC. I should try the XIM on the PC version of COD with V-Sync off and see how it feel's then, That would give me the answer if it's a latency or a V-Sync issue I'm feeling.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 06:00 PM - 03/24/14
Well, V-Sync isn't the issue, It actually made the look mechanic feel slower making it harder to turn. Does the same thing if I only use the mouse directly, You simply cannot "Flick" turn accurately with V-Sync on lol

I'll admit tho, The Xbox 360 ST feels tighter then the PS4 ST (PC Uses 360 look mechanic for Gamepad) but that could be because the framerate was higher - 91fps.
 
I also just remembered Ghosts on PS4 doesn't have V-Sync because the framerate goes above 60 frequently :o So I still think it's latency I'm feeling.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 06:03 PM - 03/24/14
If you make all of your cables as short as possible, you could save up to 1ms

(http://i.imgur.com/bdGN2z6.jpg)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: PS3_UK on 06:04 PM - 03/24/14

Anyone who claims to be able to feel 4ms is a liar, plain and simple.

Well, I feel a difference between 125hz to 500hz pretty easily so...... yeah lol


Maybe there is an increase in smoothness from 125hz to 500hz polling rate but I just cannot believe 4ms is perceptible. 125hz vs 125hz with +4ms added to ping would be indistinguishable.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 06:32 PM - 03/24/14
If you make all of your cables as short as possible, you could save up to 1ms

Ha ha, Very funny :P

Maybe there is an increase in smoothness from 125hz to 500hz polling rate but I just cannot believe 4ms is perceptible. 125hz vs 125hz with +4ms added to ping would be indistinguishable.

Maybe not, But it couldn't hurt to try it out with a experimental build in the future :D I'm sure it will be just like the 824EX firmware drop, A lot of people will notice a difference in responsiveness just like before. 
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 07:12 PM - 03/24/14
I'm thrilled that this project and our community has gotten to the point of literally critiquing at the millisecond level -- it shows the level of quality that has been achieved and how deep people go with this project. Please understand that at this point we don't believe the changes being discussed here would have an impact greater than the development and test resources required for the change. I'm not saying we'd never do it. But, it's certainly lower priority given all the other things we need to do.

I originally just asked a question, or two.

I never really got an answer, I wasn't demanding change, just if it could be done.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 11:15 PM - 03/24/14
I never really got an answer, I wasn't demanding change, just if it could be done.

Of course -- it's just software. :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 03:01 AM - 03/25/14
I'm with Headhunter here, I've always felt this "input lag" (it's very tiny.)
But it is there, i always thought it was due to vsync!

But clearly not!

Also @Headhunters the XBOX360 ST probably felt tighter because the PC version will use the same dead zones as the XBOX version! I'm sure if the Sony's controllers were the standard on PC, game devs would use the dualshock dead zones!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:08 AM - 03/25/14
I'm with Headhunter here, I've always felt this "input lag" (it's very tiny.)
But it is there, i always thought it was due to vsync!

But clearly not!

Also @Headhunters the XBOX360 ST probably felt tighter because the PC version will use the same dead zones as the XBOX version! I'm sure if the Sony's controllers were the standard on PC, game devs would use the dualshock dead zones!

I only used the 360 ST on PC cause I know all the PC versions use the 360 look mechanic. I knew the PS4 wouldn't match, So I didn't try the PS4 ST on PC :)

What I meant was the 360 ST felt "Tighter" in general, The PS4 ST doesn't feel that way to me on PS4.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 04:14 AM - 03/25/14
I'm with Headhunter here, I've always felt this "input lag" (it's very tiny.)
But it is there, i always thought it was due to vsync!

But clearly not!

Also @Headhunters the XBOX360 ST probably felt tighter because the PC version will use the same dead zones as the XBOX version! I'm sure if the Sony's controllers were the standard on PC, game devs would use the dualshock dead zones!

I only used the 360 ST on PC cause I know all the PC versions use the 360 look mechanic. I knew the PS4 wouldn't match, So I didn't try the PS4 ST on PC :)

What I meant was the 360 ST felt "Tighter" in general, The PS4 ST doesn't feel that way to me on PS4.

Ohhhhh sorry.

So the ST on PS4 feels looser then the ST on 360, so you're over shooting targets?
To you does the XIME feel better with the W11CE device or PS4 BETA support?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:24 AM - 03/25/14
So the ST on PS4 feels looser then the ST on 360, so you're over shooting targets?
To you does the XIME feel better with the W11CE device or PS4 BETA support?

Pretty much yeah :-\

The XIM4E works pretty much the same with & without the W11CE device if there was no PS4 ST's, That's the only difference tbh is the ST's.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 04:54 AM - 03/25/14
So the ST on PS4 feels looser then the ST on 360, so you're over shooting targets?
To you does the XIME feel better with the W11CE device or PS4 BETA support?

Pretty much yeah :-\

The XIM4E works pretty much the same with & without the W11CE device if there was no PS4 ST's, That's the only difference tbh is the ST's.

OK so is it the PS4 overall that feels like it's floating with XIM?
Or does the 360 ghosts ST feel better on PS4?

I couldn't tell from your posts if you said you had already tried that?
Or if that's what you use on PS4!

I think maybe if the PS4 ghosts frame rate is all over the place, this would contribute to the ST's not giving a 100% pure translation?

I know from playing ghosts with controller! Ghosts on PS4 has massive frame rate issues?
This could have made the translator perform a little buggy?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 05:25 AM - 03/25/14
OK so is it the PS4 overall that feels like it's floating with XIM?
Or does the 360 ghosts ST feel better on PS4?

I couldn't tell from your posts if you said you had already tried that?
Or if that's what you use on PS4!

I think maybe if the PS4 ghosts frame rate is all over the place, this would contribute to the ST's not giving a 100% pure translation?

I know from playing ghosts with controller! Ghosts on PS4 has massive frame rate issues?
This could have made the translator perform a little buggy?

I use the PS4 ST only on PS4, The 360 ghosts ST felt great on the PC version but I dunno if that was cause the game was running at 91fps. I don't have the 360 version of Ghost's so can't comment if it feels like that on the console itself  :-[

Yeah the framerate is maddening, It drives me a little bit crazy sometimes haha :P
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: 3MIX_Edge on 10:07 AM - 03/25/14
I never really got an answer, I wasn't demanding change, just if it could be done.

Of course -- it's just software. :)

Here's to hoping one day, after the XIM4 has been perfected and the team are in a good position do look at it perhaps, can never hurt to have yet another bullet point that makes your device so much better than the competitions to be able to say you're shaving ms off of any other device on the market.

As long as it can without compromising what works already with the XIM I mean.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:57 AM - 03/25/14
If we are going down this road, what's wrong with aiming for 1ms? Lol

Not even joking..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 11:33 AM - 03/25/14
If we are going down this road, what's wrong with aiming for 1ms? Lol

Not even joking..

you can't lower the value more than what the controller lets you. it's more or less that simple..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:46 AM - 03/25/14
So OBsIV said the MS controller is 8ms and PS4 is 4ms..
He said he could lower it to 4ms but doesnt think its worth his effort!

By your understanding wouldn't that render the xim useless with the xbox one if he lowered the response time to 4ms to match the DS4's capabilities?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 11:53 AM - 03/25/14
nope because 8ms is an exact multiple of 4ms.. so when xbox "asks" the XIM what's up, XIM will always reply exactly on time.. and one of the XIM's replies is just lost in oblivion xD
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:03 PM - 03/25/14
Ohhhhhhh i see now, sorry.
I never heard it explained in that way before.

That makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Skippy on 03:11 PM - 03/25/14
Check your reaction time.

I am guessing a vast majority of everyone here are well above 200ms.

http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 04:03 PM - 03/25/14
In fairness, reaction time isn't really a proper measure for this. Even thinking about reaction time, you realize in your brain the color changed before you click it. This is about perception time, not reaction time.

I still don't think anyone can tell the difference between 4ms and 8ms, but I also don't think that reaction time is proof of that.
Title: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 07:22 PM - 03/25/14
Yeah if reaction time was what we were going by then we wouldn't need anything over 10fps in games eh
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Maxxgold on 09:14 PM - 03/25/14
In fairness, reaction time isn't really a proper measure for this. Even thinking about reaction time, you realize in your brain the color changed before you click it. This is about perception time, not reaction time.

I still don't think anyone can tell the difference between 4ms and 8ms, but I also don't think that reaction time is proof of that.

lol. It's clearly reaction time. It changes color and the time it takes you to react and click your mouse is called, Reaction Time. Perception time, that's a good one. Reading through these posts just makes me laugh. I would be willing to bet that most of you complaining about 4ms lag don't even have a setup where it would make a difference, not that it would make a difference anyways.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 09:26 PM - 03/25/14
In fairness, reaction time isn't really a proper measure for this. Even thinking about reaction time, you realize in your brain the color changed before you click it. This is about perception time, not reaction time.

I still don't think anyone can tell the difference between 4ms and 8ms, but I also don't think that reaction time is proof of that.

lol. It's clearly reaction time. It changes color and the time it takes you to react and click your mouse is called, Reaction Time. Perception time, that's a good one.

Reading comprehension fail. Of course the link he posted to is a measure of reaction time. My post said that reaction time, however, is not a valid measure of whether you can feel 4ms of input lag on a video game.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 04:46 AM - 03/26/14
In fairness, reaction time isn't really a proper measure for this. Even thinking about reaction time, you realize in your brain the color changed before you click it. This is about perception time, not reaction time.

I still don't think anyone can tell the difference between 4ms and 8ms, but I also don't think that reaction time is proof of that.

lol. It's clearly reaction time. It changes color and the time it takes you to react and click your mouse is called, Reaction Time. Perception time, that's a good one.

Reading comprehension fail. Of course the link he posted to is a measure of reaction time. My post said that reaction time, however, is not a valid measure of whether you can feel 4ms of input lag on a video game.

Now now children!

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 05:19 AM - 03/26/14
like the top noticeable benchmark on reaction matters. like i said before, you can't see more than 60fps yet you notice 120Hz quite well. like night and day. not because you are seeing individual frames more, but because the result of the frames transition - movement - your eyes see being so different.

lag in animations is the same on a smaller scale. sometimes you can't pinpoint what is wrong, just that something doesn't feel right for some reason, but you can't tell what if you individually try to look.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 06:35 AM - 03/26/14
In fairness, reaction time isn't really a proper measure for this. Even thinking about reaction time, you realize in your brain the color changed before you click it. This is about perception time, not reaction time.

I still don't think anyone can tell the difference between 4ms and 8ms, but I also don't think that reaction time is proof of that.

lol. It's clearly reaction time. It changes color and the time it takes you to react and click your mouse is called, Reaction Time. Perception time, that's a good one. Reading through these posts just makes me laugh. I would be willing to bet that most of you complaining about 4ms lag don't even have a setup where it would make a difference, not that it would make a difference anyways.

Reaction time isn't the issue. It's the perception of delay that we're talking about.

When I play on my PC and have the option to chose between a 20ms ping server and a 170ms ping server, I'll chose the 20ms every time. It's not because I have reaction times less than 170ms (I averaged about 230), but rather that I can notice a difference between 20ms and 170ms. When I turn, click, jump, or perform some other action, I am expecting an instant result - or in reality a result that is nearly always ~250ms (my average 230 + a good ping of 20) after I observe and react. I become accustom to that result, build my expectations around it. When I see something and react to it, and the result is 400ms (230 + 170) then I notice.

To a lesser degree, monitor response times, refresh rates, polling rates of mice and keyboards, all add to that perception of delay. My mind sees an event occur, and the sum total delay between that occurrence and the resulting action on screen is my perception of whether there is delay or not, regardless of the fact that there always is.

As to the discussion at hand, I also agree that the perceptible difference between 4ms and 8ms is negligible. If it were achieved would I become accustom to it? Perhaps. But it is in no way necessary or critical that we seek that result as things stand. I know that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a 4ms increase.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 08:14 AM - 03/26/14
To a lesser degree, monitor response times, refresh rates, polling rates of mice and keyboards, all add to that perception of delay. My mind sees an event occur, and the sum total delay between that occurrence and the resulting action on screen is my perception of whether there is delay or not, regardless of the fact that there always is.

This! it all adds up, having all delays cut as short as possible "as a whole" improves overall enjoyment!

As to the discussion at hand, I also agree that the perceptible difference between 4ms and 8ms is negligible. If it were achieved would I become accustom to it? Perhaps. But it is in no way necessary or critical that we seek that result as things stand. I know that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a 4ms increase.

This! it's not critical, i agree, but it shouldn't be brushed to one side.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 10:47 AM - 03/26/14
To a lesser degree, monitor response times, refresh rates, polling rates of mice and keyboards, all add to that perception of delay. My mind sees an event occur, and the sum total delay between that occurrence and the resulting action on screen is my perception of whether there is delay or not, regardless of the fact that there always is.

This! it all adds up, having all delays cut as short as possible "as a whole" improves overall enjoyment!

As to the discussion at hand, I also agree that the perceptible difference between 4ms and 8ms is negligible. If it were achieved would I become accustom to it? Perhaps. But it is in no way necessary or critical that we seek that result as things stand. I know that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference in a 4ms increase.

This! it's not critical, i agree, but it shouldn't be brushed to one side.

Remember that not all "delays" are cumulative. Some are concurrent, or are only adding delay in the difference between other updates. Eg if your XIM is polling at 8ms and your mouse is only polling at 10ms, you'll have a delay of 2ms - 8ms depending on their sync. (this isn't actually the case; I use it only as an example)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: PS3_UK on 08:17 AM - 05/03/14
Just to add another thought on this. Although a reduction of 4ms might not make any real difference ingame, perhaps this isn't the real question - perhaps the real question is "will it sell units?" Manufacturers of monitors and wireless mice use figures like '1ms lag' or '2ms lag' as a selling point - as do Cronus. Being 'the fastest/ lowest lag M/KB converter' might be a useful selling point for XIM4 even if it's not actually any use ingame.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 08:25 AM - 05/03/14
that is surely true.. but honestly if OBsIV advertised that XIM4 is 4ms even with it being 8ms, who would know? sure as hell not the people that believe Cronus and their 1ms claims. so why not take it even further and say XIM4 is 0.5ns (nanoseconds) ?

i mean why not LOL  it will get sales ;D
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:29 AM - 05/03/14
I really think in the future we should see a push for a PS4 4ms firmware drop..

I mean to me it's not even a question. Its should be on the list of things to come after initial release.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: helpmeout on 02:45 PM - 05/03/14
i don't think the lag is that noticeable. but if it can be improved why not :D

8ms alone isn't noticeable but in games like COD where reactions can make a world of difference it does.

Not because of the 8ms by itself, but add the controllers own input lag as well as our TV's or monitors and you can actually by loosing a frame every second (16.7ms) and that matters in games like COD.

If the USB rate is 125Hz I don't think they can

Ah I see...
Man 8ms is Nothing in cod, it makes no difference .... sorry but it just doesnt.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 08:56 AM - 05/04/14
Hmmm... I don't think anybody is really hitting the spot in my mind on the effects of a 4 ms response time.

8 ms vs 4 ms response time is NOT going to help you in terms of reflexes AT ALL.  The most you can move your mouse in 4 ms is what... A couple nanometers?... The usefulness of a couple nanometers is very negligible (and this is assuming you're a badd4$$ who can even react in 4 ms???)

Now what a 4 ms response time DOES give you is a overall smoother movement than a 8 ms poll.  If you want to try this experiment, simply set your mouse to 125 hz and then try 250 hz.  There actually is a small difference in smoothness.  But when I say SMALL I MEAN SMALL LIKE REALLY REALLY REALLY SMALL, SO SMALL I actually had to pay attention for like a couple minutes to truly zone in on the difference... Most likely, more than anything, a better gaming mouse pad would do me more good. 

In the end is a 4 ms response time all that great?... Not really.  Especially since you'll end up with a lag response on the PS4 frame rate end of 16.66 ms and a monitor input lag (at the VERY least using an ASUS IPS LED monitor) of 8 ms, add that up, and you're dead set at a minimum of 24.66 ms.  This isn't even accounting for internet ping lag that rook mentioned earlier which adds even further but I will not tag this because we're simply talking what you'll experience physically. 

In the end 4 ms is smoother, but is it going to be noticeable in game? Not at all... I seriously had to stare hardcore at my screen to even notice the difference. 
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: reqless on 09:15 PM - 05/04/14
XIM got to where it is by constantly pushing the boundary and tweaking to get the best performance.

Go back and play with the first golden XIM3 firmware. Many of the so called "unnoticeable" delays were hurting the XIM's translation. If it wasn't for the perceptive individuals who pushed to get the least amount of input lag, we wouldn't have the perfection that we have now.

And now you guys are debating whether 4ms is worth pushing for? Are you kidding me?

You guys would make CS & Quake pros cry.

XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.
I never really got an answer, I wasn't demanding change, just if it could be done.

Of course -- it's just software. :)

As a suggestion, in the future after XIM4 launches, make a trial 4ms RC build. Only PS4 & as barebones as possible, cut out all the unnecessary "syncing" code if that's even possible. Release it to us and gauge if players can feel anything. If they is no immediate positivity from RC testers, check if off the list and stick with the 125hz forever.

On PC I definitely feel 500hz vs 125hz, but 250hz is harder to judge. If it's just TOO cumbersome to tweak the coding for this trial, then I suppose it's not worth your time.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 06:42 AM - 05/05/14
Ehhh... Dude I think I'd rather have data transfer syncing that a 4 ms lag response time.  Here's my two cents, if Obsiv and the team can get 4 ms and have it sync perfectly with the system, that'd be great and one less thing to worry about but as of right now, I'd prioritize other things than a 4 ms response time
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 10:25 AM - 05/05/14
I really think in the future we should see a push for a PS4 4ms firmware drop..

I mean to me it's not even a question. Its should be on the list of things to come after initial release.
I agree 100%, I don't care what anyone says I can feel the differences. It took me years to find a suitable monitor to play on so I stuck with a CRT for a long @#$% time. Truth be told I still rather use a CRT but it's not practical because they're huge.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 01:59 PM - 05/05/14
In terms of monitors or displays, you're talking about a difference that can vary from 8 ms to 100 ms depending on the display. You'd have a better chance of switching from an LED monitor making 12 to 15 ms of lag to an IPS LED monitor making 8 ms of lag than having xim downing an extra 4 ms of input lag that you won't even see displayed until the PS4's frame is sent to the monitor
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: colb on 02:15 PM - 05/05/14
Placebo.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 02:30 PM - 05/05/14
Placebo.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 02:31 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 02:43 PM - 05/05/14
Placebo.

Agreed.

Yup.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: colb on 02:47 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?

MTAR-X Rate of Fire = 810 RPM

810 rounds / 60 seconds = 13.5 rounds per second

1 ms = 0.001 second

13.5 x 0.004 = 0.054 rounds per 4 milliseconds


Again.... Placebo
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 02:51 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?

MTAR-X Rate of Fire = 810 RPM

810 rounds / 60 seconds = 13.5 rounds per second

1 ms = 0.001 second

13.5 x 0.004 = 0.054 rounds per 4 milliseconds


Again.... Placebo
So he can put shots into me quicker than I can into him.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: colb on 02:52 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?

MTAR-X Rate of Fire = 810 RPM

810 rounds / 60 seconds = 13.5 rounds per second

1 ms = 0.001 second

13.5 x 0.004 = 0.054 rounds per 4 milliseconds


Again.... Placebo
So he can put shots into me quicker than I can into him.

wat
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 02:55 PM - 05/05/14
So he can put shots into me quicker than I can into him.

Only if you don't understand math. Or physics. Or time.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 02:57 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?

MTAR-X Rate of Fire = 810 RPM

810 rounds / 60 seconds = 13.5 rounds per second

1 ms = 0.001 second

13.5 x 0.004 = 0.054 rounds per 4 milliseconds


Again.... Placebo
So he can put shots into me quicker than I can into him.

wat
My bad, I was saying if a controller player shoots at me he can put shots in to me quicker.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 02:57 PM - 05/05/14
That MTAR analogy makes no sense??....

Trust me what most people perceive as input lag IS NOT FROM THE DEVICE.  It is from your monitor / display

Again to those seriously wanting a 4 ms input response time... Placebo


Also ZimZim, you're more likely to suffer ping lag up to a minimum of 20 ms (+ additional ping lag) than have 4 ms save your butt on BF4 LOL
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 02:58 PM - 05/05/14
My bad, I was saying if a controller player shoots at me he can put shots in to me quicker.

Still "nope." Keep trying though.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: colb on 02:59 PM - 05/05/14
How many bullets can an mtar or a vector shoot in 4ms? Or is this irrelevant?

MTAR-X Rate of Fire = 810 RPM

810 rounds / 60 seconds = 13.5 rounds per second

1 ms = 0.001 second

13.5 x 0.004 = 0.054 rounds per 4 milliseconds


Again.... Placebo
So he can put shots into me quicker than I can into him.

The MTAR-X shoots at 810 RPM regardless of your controllers input. When it begins that fire rate, is up to the controller input latency + ping + reaction time.

So with everything else being equal, a 4ms XIM vs an 8ms XIM would produce 99.95% equal results. The timing between the two would be unnoticeable to the naked eye. Literally.

You're talking about 0.05 of a single bullet fire time.


Both will still maintain the same fire rate. But the 4ms user would have a 4/1000th of a second advantage. Oh god nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 03:00 PM - 05/05/14
My bad, I was saying if a controller player shoots at me he can put shots in to me quicker.

Still "nope." Keep trying though.
Thanks for setting me straight man, good looks.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 03:13 PM - 05/05/14
16ms to 8ms, people felt they said, was that placebo too mathematically? I don't care about 4ms, just curious if that was different.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ZimZimSalabim on 03:18 PM - 05/05/14
16ms to 8ms, people felt they said, was that placebo too mathematically? I don't care about 4ms, just curious if that was different.
I absolutely felt the change. I actually didn't like it at first but I got used to it.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 04:33 PM - 05/05/14
16ms to 8ms, people felt they said, was that placebo too mathematically? I don't care about 4ms, just curious if that was different.

Well back then, You felt a difference Roads.

Souver Toys apply to the RC testers and try the 824EX  it’s the sh.it so I think. I hope I dont lean far out the window but this feels extremely twitchy! im loving it.


I too felt the same when the EX824 build was released. It was almost as big a difference going from 60hz to 120hz with PC Gaming for me, Very noticeable :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 09:58 PM - 05/05/14
gais gais sthap.. this whole discussion goes beyond pointless and beating dead horses in an industrial line.

it doesn't matter if the difference is placebo or noticeable, the outcome will be the same:


OBsIV has said it could be done.
OBsIV has said it would be a hassle, something that is a lot of work.
given the above, it doesn't matter if all XIMers request thisor none do, until other more important things are done, this won't be.



give it a rest. wait for other stuff to be out of the way and then ask for this all you want. that's just my opinion btw.. nothing wrong with debating. it's just pointless at this moment in time.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: abc123 on 12:05 AM - 05/06/14
So i've read 11 pages now...and i've figured it out...

some people want this...
and some people don't...

and a few don't care
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 12:30 AM - 05/06/14
So i've read 11 pages now...and i've figured it out...

some people want this...
and some people don't...

and a few don't care


rofl, where is OB in those 3 categories ? (trick question)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 01:16 AM - 05/06/14
So i've read 11 pages

4 pages here brah! Your doing it wrong.

=====

This is not about being out gunned, this is about how the mouse feels with the XIM!
I mean the Cronus has software that allows it to have 1ms response time < No i'm not asking for that!

But as X or Current PC gamers aren't we all involved in the optimization struggle?
To have things working at there full capacity? If the DS4 can operate at 4ms then so should the XIM4 when in use on the PS4!

I remember OBsIV back when he first started talking about how the XIM is in perfect timing with the 360...

Even now the XIM4 will be in perfect timing with the XBONE, but not the PS4, it will be in time with it, but not perfectly! He even says in the XIM ST demonstration on HALO how "important" the XIM being in perfect timing is..

So why do the PS4 crowd get @#$% on again? I thought XIM was no longer "Xbox input machine?" I thought XIM just represented a name, a company name now? Which IMO would indicate that every console it supports should be treated equally.

/ratingbecause no one is getting the point.

If someone thinks the 4ms will make them win through reaction time i too would say "placebo"
But everyone in these last "11 / 4" pages have completely missed the point apart from me and Headhunterz...

The lower the polling rate the snappier the feel of the mouse.

And OBsIV if you're going to reply and call that statement false, please do so!

But in the future release a 4ms PS4 firmware and we shall see, because every single naysayer here will go back on what they previously said. Its not about response time for reactions, its about the FEEL of the mouse polling at 250hz / 4ms being perfectly in tune with PS4 not the XBONE.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: anony on 04:05 AM - 05/06/14
Its sad how obs doesn't put this in the top "to do list".

We know that 4ms is what ps4 runs (xbox 1 is 8ms) and a 4ms difference is usually negligible BUT factor all the other input lag we get when gaming on console - TV lag, mouse lag, connection lag. It all adds up. We just want to eliminate as much as possible and make it snappier. Thats it.

I mean most gaming mice on PC aim for 1ms, why can't we aim for the native input of the controller for ps4? just seems logical. It just means more work for Xims programmers. So I guess they are taking the easy way out. Doesn't really seem like them at all.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 04:19 AM - 05/06/14
The fact of the matter is that OBsIV and Orbital probably don't want to accommodate two firmwares.
As separating them would mean having to release individual updates for both.

You're right it does seem like a logical implementation, but it would be more work for them.

Regardless, again it's not about response time for reactions! it's about the fluidity of the mouse at the controllers optimal polling rate. You can say it doesn't make a difference, well then let us see!?

Lets do a trail firmware for the PS4 when the XIM4 is here, and we'll vote?

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 04:33 AM - 05/06/14
Quote
I mean the Cronus has software that allows it to have 1ms response time

Has somebody compared snappyness? I mean someone who believes them.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 04:34 AM - 05/06/14
16ms to 8ms, people felt they said, was that placebo too mathematically? I don't care about 4ms, just curious if that was different.

Well back then, You felt a difference Roads.

Souver Toys apply to the RC testers and try the 824EX  it’s the sh.it so I think. I hope I dont lean far out the window but this feels extremely twitchy! im loving it.


I too felt the same when the EX824 build was released. It was almost as big a difference going from 60hz to 120hz with PC Gaming for me, Very noticeable :)

Yeah but was I placeboed? I dont think so. But was I?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 04:35 AM - 05/06/14
Yeah but was I placeboed? I dont think so. But was I?

no. there were people who didn't know about the changes that felt a difference aside from the sens..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 05:09 AM - 05/06/14
Okay........ YESH DALE.... I think you missed the point COMPLETELY regarding placebo.  I personally said that it is a PLACEBO in terms of reaction input lag.  It however is NOT a placebo as to how mouse movement feel.  If you go back and read my post, a 4 ms response time gives an overall smoother movement as I did the comparison between a 125 hz polling rate on mouse movements vs 250 hz mouse movements. 

Just food for thought, when the Xim build moved from a 16 ms delay to a 8 ms delay time, YOU WERE NOT PLACEBOED.  Xim on Xbox during the 16 ms response time was actually MISSING every other Xbox controller poll (assuming the data sync was completely on track).  On top of that, if the data sync was off, you could even experience even higher response times. 

This same thing is currently happening on PS4 where Xim4 misses every other DS4 polling rate. HOWEVER, the difference between 60 hz to 125 hz is wayyyy more noticeable than 125 hz to 250 hz.  Is it an improvement? Yes.  Is it going to generate overall smoother mouse movements? Yes.  Are you seriously going to notice it in game? Probably not.

After release this should be alpha tested at 250 hz by somebody who is unbiased and if it makes THAT big of a difference, I'd say consider it.  But as of now, there's way more important stuff other than an 4 ms response time. 
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 05:30 AM - 05/06/14
Okay........ YESH DALE....

Rofl calm down lad!

This same thing is currently happening on PS4 where Xim4 misses every other DS4 polling rate. HOWEVER, the difference between 60 hz to 125 hz is wayyyy more noticeable than 125 hz to 250 hz.  Is it an improvement? Yes.  Is it going to generate overall smoother mouse movements? Yes.  Are you seriously going to notice it in game? Probably not.

I agree, and have been..
You say i completely misunderstood, then you basically re explain everything I've just been talking about.
Apart from you saying you wont be able to notice it? I know for a fact i will notice it.

GG

After release this should be alpha tested at 250 hz by somebody who is unbiased and if it makes THAT big of a difference, I'd say consider it.  But as of now, there's way more important stuff other than an 4 ms response time. 

^ Basically that's all i was saying you nubley! now apologize before you make me angry :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 05:53 AM - 05/06/14
I'm calm lol I typed your name all in caps because thats how it is on the forums XD Sorry for missing an E. 

Btw, you're telling me you'll feel an improvement of 4 ms of input lag in game yes?  Is this the same as how before you were trying to tell me you'll get less lag due to a higher Hz rating on a tv? Cause if this is true... It is kinda a load of bull since Hz and input rates are completely two different things. 

You yourself won't feel the the lag reducing effects of a 4 ms response rate at all. What you will feel is a smoother mouse.  Everybody will feel it, not just you.  Point being, are you gonna be like "Holy crap! Woudn't have gotten those last set of kills without my 4 ms input response time!"... No... You'll more likely be patting yourself on the back about your reflexes.  I mean seriously, on BF3 using the 8 ms response times of Xim Edge, I still got a 4.00 KDR and a 1000+ spm average...

Also if I'm correct, you were advocating for a full blown Xim4 patch rather than just an alpha as well as trying to take into consideration that there is other stuff to get done as well...

Seriously, I don't recommend bullying around half this forum just because you have 4k posts and think you're a hotshot whose trying to advocate for the PC master race.  There's quite a few posters around here who have like near null posts but when they do post, its ridiculously inspirational. 

Obsiv has laid down the ground rules already by saying that IT CAN BE DONE but would be a total pain in the butt.  LEAVE IT AT THIS UNTIL Xim4 is released because why waste your time on a 4 ms response time when there's other work to be done like maybe improving the data syncing even further (not that it needs to be fixed at all) or other stuff?  If he has free time, go at it, but as of right now, the move from 8 ms to 4 ms is negligible
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 06:07 AM - 05/06/14
You yourself won't feel the the lag reducing effects of a 4 ms response rate at all. What you will feel is a smoother mouse.  Everybody will feel

I read to there, because that's exactly what i'm saying.

And i was telling you to calm for all the .........
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 06:40 AM - 05/06/14
what if we raise a crowdscoursing event so we can get the cash to rent Watson from IBM to settle this debate once and for all
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 06:41 AM - 05/06/14
lol..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 06:45 AM - 05/06/14
 Its btw quite interesting to see, this time from the outside, how hard it is to get a feature to trial in this forum. At once you are jumped by a bunch of teachers. Singlecoil is my favorite.
The only important post is this one from Obsiv

Quote
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

It doesn’t seem to be easy and he doesn’t seem to want this.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 06:46 AM - 05/06/14
Quote from: OBsIV
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the XBOX ONES clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

It doesn’t seem to be easy and he doesn't seem to want this for PS4

Corrected.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 10:04 AM - 05/06/14
Its btw quite interesting to see, this time from the outside, how hard it is to get a feature to trial in this forum. At once you are jumped by a bunch of teachers. Singlecoil is my favorite.

ooohhh shots fired.

but come one roads you know this thread was necro'ed. and there are more pressing matters to work on before this (like normalizations)

i can imagine that the change is a hard one with a lot of work and some challenges. bias aside, i think i can sympathize with his reluctant attitude. he didn't say he wasn't willing to do it, that's a first step.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:08 AM - 05/06/14
roads just doesn't like being presented with facts that disagree with his preferred outcome. Doesn't bother me one bit.

You, however, ak, I'm just trying to save your life. And I care.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 10:18 AM - 05/06/14
Hi Sir, do you have a minute to talk about our lord and best option, laser pickups?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:29 AM - 05/06/14
The thing is, no ones is asking for it to be a release date feature!
I'm just saying it should be a feature for PS4 at some point.

TBH i would rather have PS4 controller Audio pass through right now.
But that is something he said was near impossible...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:39 AM - 05/06/14
PS4 audio passthrough isn't "near impossible," it's "entirely impossible." The DS4 simply does not send audio data over USB. Nothing that can be done about it unless Sony changes that.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:23 PM - 05/06/14
Yea i wasn't trying to argue whether it could or couldn't be done single lad! I'm just saying that would have beem more important to me!

Since it can't be done! Commence operations long roads to feature request! Did you see what i did there? ;)

Oh and @winterzxxx868 i read the rest if your post, wow you think i'm bullying now hmm? Lol how on earth did you come to that conclusion?

My name isn't Toysrme i don't need anyone to feel below me for my post count. I'm not going to try and pull the wool over your eyes and say i never even noticed i was 4k+ posts, but honestly i rarely pay any attention to it.

I'm sorry if my forum manhood intimidates you.
Just don't drop the soap and you'll do just fine.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:33 PM - 05/06/14
Haha! Shows how much attention i do pay to my post count...

I'm nearly at 5k possibly only 20 posts i ever made would have gotten a + karma (not intentionally) but i guess thats a whole lot of bad karma i've accumulated over the years...

I still can't get over winterz thinking i try to bully people on this forum!
I'm usually the one taking the brunt of the bullying around here!

I don't fit in xD, but hey i love the community when its playing nice, its a love hate relationship. I've never felt like i've tried to bully anyone tbh...

Thats just blew my mind son!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RML on 01:29 PM - 05/06/14
Stop buying laggy peripheals = problem solved.  :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 03:30 PM - 05/06/14
(http://www.speedtest.net/result/3484952473.png)

as of now, i won't feel a thing T_T ..
yay, fiber 50down5up *sigh*


4ms? yeah won't matter online for me.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: ak-xs on 03:34 PM - 05/06/14
Haha! Shows how much attention i do pay to my post count...

I'm nearly at 5k possibly only 20 posts i ever made would have gotten a + karma (not intentionally) but i guess thats a whole lot of bad karma i've accumulated over the years...

every time people talk about my post count, or any count for that matter, they intend on it being used in a negative way, like xs'sive. bad karma, bad..
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 08:50 PM - 05/06/14
Haha! Shows how much attention i do pay to my post count...

I'm nearly at 5k possibly only 20 posts i ever made would have gotten a + karma (not intentionally) but i guess thats a whole lot of bad karma i've accumulated over the years...

I still can't get over winterz thinking i try to bully people on this forum!
I'm usually the one taking the brunt of the bullying around here!

I don't fit in xD, but hey i love the community when its playing nice, its a love hate relationship. I've never felt like i've tried to bully anyone tbh...

Thats just blew my mind son!
Lol dude, the way you talk (type) is just kinda condescending.  Not really my thing to lie low when somebody talks to me that way.  Just post nicely and watch the attitude.  Also your forum manhood is nothing to me.

But anyways, I apologize my dear friend as we're all ximers on here and no hate should be passed on from ximer to ximer.  And yes, having a 4 ms response time would be cool and you're right it does give a smoother movement and all but I'd rather have a smooth working Xim4 at 8 ms than a janky Xim4 at 4 ms with a side order of parkinson's (sorry to anybody who has this mental disorder, I do not mean to offend you)


Also RML, I love your post hahaha excelllent!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 10:35 PM - 05/06/14
How is this thread still a thing?

4 vs 8 is placebo.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 10:59 PM - 05/06/14
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 02:03 AM - 05/07/14
Winterz your first paragraph was probably one of the most "condescending" post I've ever read on this forum.

No bait.

Telling me to watch "the" attitude rofl..

You're starting to sound like a bit of a phallus head!
Seriously how you can you write:


You probably have no clue who I am in real life.

Them come at me brah!? You're starting to sound like a bit of a silly billy. Silly Billy's get no respect around here brah! I mean just look at me rofl...

Quote from: wintersxxx868
and who I'm related to.

Who? The mafia?! Come on maaaaaaan dont drop passive aggressive threats on this forum, it makes you look like a proper dessert spoon lad.

I mean really where were you going with that whole thing?
I couldn't give a squirt of lemon juice in your next fix who your family is ya big ol dessert spoon!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 06:04 AM - 05/07/14
Facepalm... Thread lock please, this topic is getting so derailed... Rook and Roads already made the final points
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 07:23 AM - 05/07/14
What I don't get is why so many people care enough to speak out against it. Some people want it, so what?  If you are lolpop enough to make multiple posts against something that, worst case scenario, does nothing you should reevaluate some things. Personally I don't care if it gets implemented or not, the whole argument is ridiculous though.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 08:36 AM - 05/07/14
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 08:36 AM - 05/07/14
Some people like me can feel a <1ms difference... Whats your KD bro?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 08:45 AM - 05/07/14
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

So provocation is justified. Thanks for explaining LOL.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 08:59 AM - 05/07/14
Quote from: singlecoilpickup link=topic=31855.msg420000#msg420000 date=1399473392
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

It would be if we were asking for it to be a release day feature!
How many times does it need to be said?

This is something that should be apart of XIM4's future!

If the XBOX was 4ms and the PS4 was 8ms we all know for a fact that yhe XIM4 would be 4ms...

Apparently that whole Lowest denominator argument is BS.

Look its not mine, or OBsIV's or XBOX's fault that PS4 has a controller that operates at 4ms! This doesn't need to get personal its just a feature requests!

If the ps4 and xbox1 both had 8ms controllers, i wouldn't be asking for 4ms out of the XIM...

I'm asking for it for PS4! Because that would be supporting the PS4 100%
Its like its a second console, like it doesn't matter as much.

Come on, the PS2 is out selling the XBOXone how does it even get priority? Because its American? Come on people!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 09:05 AM - 05/07/14
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

Well considering none of us have a financial stake in the XIM company, what it comes down to is, "I'd rather OBsIV spend time on something I want than something you want"
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:13 AM - 05/07/14
I personally think there are more people wanting to speak up about this but are too scared to post there opinion! For fear of being burned..

i don't mind carrying the burden on this one at all.
You can think of me as an idiot for pushing this!

I really don't care, i know i'm right!
I don't think its going to win me kills! Through reaction time!

I know it will improve the feel of the XIM on PS4 for everyone!
Its that simple..

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 09:16 AM - 05/07/14
Ill be owning all u 8ms scrubs with my 4ms advantage. get off me.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:17 AM - 05/07/14
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

Well considering none of us have a financial stake in the XIM company, what it comes down to is, "I'd rather OBsIV spend time on something I want than something you want"

Nah, I'm utilitarian. I want the greatest good for the greatest number. Tweaking 8 down to 4 doesn't fit that.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 09:19 AM - 05/07/14

Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

Well considering none of us have a financial stake in the XIM company, what it comes down to is, "I'd rather OBsIV spend time on something I want than something you want"

Nah, I'm utilitarian. I want the greatest good for the greatest number. Tweaking 8 down to 4 doesn't fit that.

Nobody said do this first, in fact they said the opposite and just hoped he'd consider it at some point when there aren't any pressing issues
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 09:24 AM - 05/07/14
Nah, I'm utilitarian. I want the greatest good for the greatest number. Tweaking 8 down to 4 doesn't fit that.

Rook gets it.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:29 AM - 05/07/14
p
Rook, not fair to provoke them, I don't see your post having any other intention. They would like to have this feature and they will likely not get it and they are not happy about it. We would all still try a 4ms experimental if its really placebo, wouldn’t we? 

Because implementing it is time wasted on something useless whereas that time could have been spent on something useful. Opportunity costs.

Well considering none of us have a financial stake in the XIM company, what it comes down to is, "I'd rather OBsIV spend time on something I want than something you want"

Nah, I'm utilitarian. I want the greatest good for the greatest number. Tweaking 8 down to 4 doesn't fit that.

Nobody said do this first, in fact they said the opposite and just hoped he'd consider it at some point when there aren't any pressing issues

Finally! Someone gets it!

Eureka moment?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:31 AM - 05/07/14
And my point is that it is a waste of time, regardless of when and where on the priority list it goes.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 09:37 AM - 05/07/14
And my point is that it is a waste of time, regardless of when and where on the priority list it goes.

Look at the to do list, it's not very long, and there are already some wastes of time on there (XP support)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: He4DHuNt3r on 09:38 AM - 05/07/14
I personally think there are more people wanting to speak up about this but are too scared to post there opinion! For fear of being burned..

i don't mind carrying the burden on this one at all.
You can think of me as an idiot for pushing this!

I really don't care, i know i'm right!
I don't think its going to win me kills! Through reaction time!

I know it will improve the feel of the XIM on PS4 for everyone!
Its that simple..


I agree +1
 
If the "Competition" can do it, Why can't XIM?? I know the mouse translation sucks but even they are able to to push lower latency.

Tuact Venom-X
1. PS3: 1000Hz, 1ms
2. PS4: 250Hz, 4ms
3. Xbox360: 250Hz, 4ms
4. Xbox1: 250Hz, 4ms

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:44 AM - 05/07/14
Thanks Headhunterz and Toqy.

@Rookcheck and Singlelad are you both not just so against this because its me talking up about it the most?

Why would anyone be against making the XIM4 feel better on the PS4?

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 09:44 AM - 05/07/14
And my point is that it is a waste of time, regardless of when and where on the priority list it goes.

Look at the to do list, it's not very long, and there are already some wastes of time on there (XP support)

4 vs 8 is a waste because it will provide precisely zero benefit.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 09:52 AM - 05/07/14
And my point is that it is a waste of time, regardless of when and where on the priority list it goes.

Look at the to do list, it's not very long, and there are already some wastes of time on there (XP support)

4 vs 8 is a waste because in my opinion it will provide precisely zero benefit.

Corrected.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 10:00 AM - 05/07/14
I personally think there are more people wanting to speak up about this but are too scared to post there opinion! For fear of being burned..

i don't mind carrying the burden on this one at all.
You can think of me as an idiot for pushing this!

I really don't care, i know i'm right!
I don't think its going to win me kills! Through reaction time!

I know it will improve the feel of the XIM on PS4 for everyone!
Its that simple..


I agree +1
 
If the "Competition" can do it, Why can't XIM?? I know the mouse translation sucks but even they are able to to push lower latency.

Tuact Venom-X
1. PS3: 1000Hz, 1ms
2. PS4: 250Hz, 4ms
3. Xbox360: 250Hz, 4ms
4. Xbox1: 250Hz, 4ms
Hey Headhunterz, ummm I've used the Venom X and sure it might poll at 250 hz or 4 ms but dear god, when I used it on Xbox One, its internal computing chip suffered so horribly from data overload on 250 hz which caused movement at times to shutter terribly as well as horrid amounts of missed polling points due to clock drift.  Trust me, when they implemented a 4 ms response rate, it was total trash.  I actually had to downgrade the thing to 125 hz just so the chip wouldn't go wonky on me 24/7.  Even at 125 hz the clock drift was still VERY noticeable.

I don't think YESH DALE even understands how hard it is to keep everything in PERFECT sync on 8 ms let alone 4 ms that he wants...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:05 AM - 05/07/14
Have faith in XIM4 winterzz, different hardware, different software.
Different companies, different team, with superior intelligence on the subject.

And @winterzz answer me this, what would OBsIV & Orbital have done if both xbox and ps consoles controllers polled at 1ms?

They would have pulled their socks up and took a great white shark bite chunk out of the problem! And probably enjoyed the challenge along the way!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: wintersxxx868 on 10:07 AM - 05/07/14
Have faith in XIM4 winterzz, different hardware, different software.
Different companies, different team, with superior intelligence on the subject.
That is true LOL... TUACT is pretty freaking bad XD...  But you have to understand, I'm not against a 4 ms response time at all... I just don't want everything else to get thrown off because of it... Especially cause the crap I dealt with on Venom X.  Terribad system. 

Also yes I do agree with your statement above, that is highly true.  But again, all I'm saying is that if they have free time, go have at it, but until everything runs smoothly, I just don't want another wonky system like the Venom X ordeal.  I mean LOL if you take a look at their forums, the gigantic list of problems I put up was deleted by their admin and then other PC gamers and Ximers on their forums posted the same problems right back up HAHAHA
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: OBsIV on 10:14 AM - 05/07/14
As I mentioned before, when we are past our higher priority items (which there are many) this is something that we can look at.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 10:21 AM - 05/07/14
Suck it rookcheck
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:24 AM - 05/07/14
As I mentioned before, when we are past our higher priority items (which there are many) this is something that we can look at.

Thats all i'm asking OBsIV! I'm not demanding anything.

I just think that if it can be done, then it should be implemented as standard.

Dont think i'll just go ahead and forget about this!
I'll be watching the list! 8)

Suck it rookcheck



Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 10:47 AM - 05/07/14
Suck it rookcheck

lol, still doesn't change the fact that it's wasted effort.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 10:55 AM - 05/07/14
Suck it rookcheck

lol, still doesn't change the fact that it's wasted effort in my opinion!

Corrected.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 10:59 AM - 05/07/14
Yeah, but when that opinion is backed by reality and science instead of the placebo effect of which some here have convinced themselves, then that opinion is pretty valid.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 11:06 AM - 05/07/14
1 = 1

"NO! THATS JUST UR OPINION DUDE!"

Fine, Publix, I'll bite. My "opinion" is that there is no difference. My "opinion" is right. You're "opinion" is that you can tell a difference. Your "opinion" is wrong.

yay word games!

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:09 AM - 05/07/14
Yeah, but when that opinion is backed by reality and science instead of the placebo effect of which some here have convinced themselves, then that opinion is pretty valid.

You're failing to comprehend basic english...

My english is pretty poor, but i'm sure if you take the time to read what so many people have been saying in this thread! Then maybe you'll grasp the point!

If we are talking about response time for "reaction" then yes 4ms over 8ms is nothing, no human vould ever perceive that difference!

But we're not talking about that!

We are talking about the feeling of smoothness that will be obtained!
The XIM4 with 4ms in tune with the DS4 will feel better then 8ms on DS4!

What don't you get lol?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 11:19 AM - 05/07/14

Yeah, but when that opinion is backed by reality and science instead of the placebo effect of which some here have convinced themselves, then that opinion is pretty valid.

But it's not backed by OBsIV, checkmate fools!!!1!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:24 AM - 05/07/14
1 = 1

"NO! THATS JUST UR OPINION DUDE!"

Fine, Publix, I'll bite. My "opinion" is that there is no difference. My "opinion" is right. You're "opinion" is that you can tell a difference. Your "opinion" is wrong.

yay word games!



No ones trying to make you bite!

You just don't get that no one was asking for this to be an immediate feature! You're like a dog with a bone!

Were asking for it to be looked into at some point.

What's your problem? You're quite intelligent, but in the last couple of pages you just look like a bit of a tw**
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 11:25 AM - 05/07/14
Gentlemen, I present to you *DRUM ROLL* *DRUM ROLL* input lag tester...

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1399313215

Please reply with A = ##s, B = ##s, C=##s. There is a 0, 4, and 8 delay.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:27 AM - 05/07/14
Gentlemen, I present to you *DRUM ROLL* *DRUM ROLL* input lag tester...

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1399313215

Please reply with A = ##s, B = ##s, C=##s. There is a 0, 4, and 8 delay.


Gentlemen, I present to you *DRUM ROLL* *DRUM ROLL* input lag tester...

http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1399313215

Please reply with A = ##s, B = ##s, C=##s. There is a 0, 4, and 8 delay.



Another idiot not understanding the argument.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 11:29 AM - 05/07/14
i have no skin in this fight sir. I dont care either way. Im just a friendly xim citizen trying to solve an issue. This will determine if u (or anybody else) can tell the difference between 0, 4, and 8 MS of lag.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 11:46 AM - 05/07/14
1 = 1

"NO! THATS JUST UR OPINION DUDE!"

Fine, Publix, I'll bite. My "opinion" is that there is no difference. My "opinion" is right. You're "opinion" is that you can tell a difference. Your "opinion" is wrong.

yay word games!



No ones trying to make you bite!

You just don't get that no one was asking for this to be an immediate feature! You're like a dog with a bone!

Were asking for it to be looked into at some point.

What's your problem? You're quite intelligent, but in the last couple of pages you just look like a bit of a tw**

lol

I am indeed quite intelligent. I also understand that you are asking for it as a "future, non-priority, wish-list item".

And if it get's implemented, no big deal. I have no objection to the improvement other than it's a waste of time and effort. If OBsIV and team want to push the boundaries and strive for excellence, that's great. I've come to expect nothing less. But any benefit that you, or others, claim to gain is purely placebo.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 11:51 AM - 05/07/14
i have no skin in this fight sir. I dont care either way. Im just a friendly xim citizen trying to solve an issue. This will determine if u (or anybody else) can tell the difference between 0, 4, and 8 MS of lag.

But that isn't the argument.

So that proves you have no idea what we're talking about!

So step off!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 11:57 AM - 05/07/14
i have no skin in this fight sir. I dont care either way. Im just a friendly xim citizen trying to solve an issue. This will determine if u (or anybody else) can tell the difference between 0, 4, and 8 MS of lag.

But that isn't the argument.

So that proves you have no idea what we're talking about!

So step off!
I was just trying to give you the chance to show everybody that you could tell the difference. I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't take the opportunity : /
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:09 PM - 05/07/14
i have no skin in this fight sir. I dont care either way. Im just a friendly xim citizen trying to solve an issue. This will determine if u (or anybody else) can tell the difference between 0, 4, and 8 MS of lag.

But that isn't the argument.

So that proves you have no idea what we're talking about!

So step off!
I was just trying to give you the chance to show everybody that you could tell the difference. I'm kind of disappointed that you didn't take the opportunity : /

:)

Ok children sit down while daddy yeesh dale explains this to you all!

When aiming in game with the XIM4 at 4ms the fluidity of the movement will feel better then 8ms!

It will not be the deciding factor in winning gun fights.

Crystal clear?

I'm surprised yall's keyboards are still working with the amount of dribble they must be swimming in!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 12:13 PM - 05/07/14
So 4ms feels better than 8ms.


You should be able to FEEL the difference between 0, 4, and 8ms. No?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Skippy on 12:20 PM - 05/07/14
http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

This is all that really matters.  :)
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 12:21 PM - 05/07/14
As I mentioned before, when we are past our higher priority items (which there are many) this is something that we can look at.

This is the point where the feature requesters are happy, the guys who argumented nicely against it are OK and the teachers look completely stupid.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 12:24 PM - 05/07/14
Why does anybody look stupid? All anybody against this has said is this is almost certainly a waste of time due to being a placebo. Just because OBsIV may entertain it due to demand doesn't make the request any less silly to those of us who understand the basics of human response time. So, I'm not sure the point of your post other than to try to insult people, which you seem to get off on lately.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 12:38 PM - 05/07/14
I am quite sure Obsiv talked about this to Orbital and they found that it could be more than placebo. I not once saw Obsiv move a finger for a feature he did not find reasonable. It’s a very small group requesting this, even if very good players.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 12:46 PM - 05/07/14
I am quite sure Obsiv talked about this to Orbital and they found that it could be more than placebo. I not once saw Obsiv move a finger for a feature he did not find reasonable. It’s a very small group requesting this, even if very good players.
U must be pretty hyped up that one of ur requested features finally made the bottom of Obsiv's lists- considering all the other bad ones that you've had got trashed outright. 

I think the key is to make obvious suggestions like "make xim have less input delay" ... and less "blah blah blah blah blah"
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 12:50 PM - 05/07/14
This was not my idea. And that’s how it goes, some ideas get in and some get trashed. The only problem is when there are no ideas at all.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 12:52 PM - 05/07/14
Just so we're clear rook ;) its got nothing to do with aiding human response time.

So to all those that thought it was?

DERP!!!!!

@Dale i asked OBsIV to put it on the list, as proof of his commitment to his statement! I imagine he would have put it on there eitherway.

But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: roads on 01:00 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 01:03 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.

lol Its not really even a feature..

u guys were like "Obsvii please make xim fast as possible"

Obsvii "okay guys, Ill try after Im done with everything else."

...like, he wasnt already planning on making it as fast as he could eventually anyways.

but GJ. pats on the back for all.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 01:06 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.

Don't you dare try to piggyback on my thunder!
This was all me baby!

Wid a lil help from Toqy & Headhunterz.. The rambo grandad bottled it after page one.

8)

And @Dale he had no intentions as he didn't want to destabilise the XIM.
But its cool, you need something to clutch, i dont see you doing it anywhere else...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 01:11 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.

Don't you dare try to piggyback on my thunder!
This was all me baby!

Wid a lil help from Toqy & Headhunterz.. The rambo grandad bottled it after page one.

8)

And @Dale he had no intentions as he didn't want to destabilise the XIM.
But its cool, you need something to clutch, i dont see you doing it anywhere else...

What that? I cant hear you.. too busy winning.. I cant hear your complaining... cause Im ..too.. busy.. winning.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 01:14 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.

lol Its not really even a feature..

u guys were like "Obsvii please make xim fast as possible"

Obsvii "okay guys, Ill try after Im done with everything else."

...like, he wasnt already planning on making it as fast as he could eventually anyways.

but GJ. pats on the back for all.

According to some people he wasn't...............
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 01:28 PM - 05/07/14
Quote
But yea, Roads has done nothing but sit on the fence this entire thread.

Was actually nice. Next time I would like a feature I just tell the Yessh and he gets it for me.

Don't you dare try to piggyback on my thunder!
This was all me baby!

Wid a lil help from Toqy & Headhunterz.. The rambo grandad bottled it after page one.

8)

And @Dale he had no intentions as he didn't want to destabilise the XIM.
But its cool, you need something to clutch, i dont see you doing it anywhere else...

What that? I cant hear you.. too busy winning.. I cant hear your complaining... cause Im ..too.. busy.. winning.

Your cheek must still be stinging from that massive slap you just got.
You probably can't hear me because your ears are still ringing.

So much for not being a part of the argument, then jumping in last minute...
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 01:40 PM - 05/07/14
The only people that care about hardware to this extent are the people who need the help.... I don't care either way. 4ms clearly isn't affecting me now- Complainers will always be complainers-  #truthistoopainful.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 01:43 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 01:53 PM - 05/07/14
The only people that care about hardware to this extent are the people who need the help.... I don't care either way. 4ms clearly isn't affecting me now- Complainers will always be complainers-  #truthistoopainful.

How much money have you spent on audio gear again i forget
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 01:55 PM - 05/07/14
i have an average setup. Ad-900 astro mixamp.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 02:08 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.

Do you just wear a bib constantly throughout the day? To catch the tears, dribbling, and your food?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: abc123 on 02:11 PM - 05/07/14
XIM is special because of the lengths we go to synchronize all your peripherals, console, audio, bluetooth com, etc. so that XIMs clock adjusts for drift of the consoles clock to ensure the passthrough is perfect. Every cycle is accounted for. We will not be destabilizing everything to shave another 4ms off when the benefits are ambiguous.

So in a nutshell you can't ever lower the input lag from the XIM to less than 8ms with everything the XIM already does?

Also that 8ms from the XIM is an addition to the controllers 8ms on the XB1 and the 4ms from the PS4 and whatever people's TV's and monitors are, is that correct?

No.

the XIM + controller input lag = 8ms

This is independent of your monitor lag...

So for 3.4ms for your monitor...

Monitor
3.4ms polling
|---|---|---|---|
XIM + controller
8ms polling
|------|------|------|

That's how it works...they aren't synced they both just run so you are at max with your setup going to have a worst case scenario of 8ms lag.

Thanks! Ask questions if needed
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 02:27 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.

Do you just wear a bib constantly throughout the day? To catch the tears, dribbling, and your food?

Avoid much?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 02:33 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.

Do you just wear a bib constantly throughout the day? To catch the tears, dribbling, and your food?

Avoid much?


You're soooo effin thick its actually unreal loooooool

I never said i could feel the difference through actions over 8ms to 4ms

I said i would be able to feel the difference or should i say "see"
As in how much smoother the mouse movement would translate into onscreen movements e.g the fluidity of the crosshair...

So much derp....
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 02:34 PM - 05/07/14
Interesting how publix turns to insults rather than just trying the test to see if he can notice 4ms.

I feel like if you think you can perceive 4ms, you should have no qualms about trying it. My thought, however, is you grossly underestimate how short of a time 4ms is and grossly overestimate your ability to perceive it.

Way to be a mature adult about this!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: toqy on 02:38 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.

Do you just wear a bib constantly throughout the day? To catch the tears, dribbling, and your food?

Avoid much?

He already stated that what he's seeking is a different feel for moving the mouse, not response time to a left click. You ignored this, and stated that the two are equivalent. This is false. You are pursuing this angle knowing that fact because OBsIV smote you on the other page. Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy. However, you are pushing it too hard and we feel that you are embarrassing yourself, so we'll choose to ignore this line of questioning. If you want to reconsider your argument and present something worthwhile, we'll gladly hear you out.

Cheers m8
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 02:43 PM - 05/07/14
Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy.
Cheers m8
LoL, okay I laughed that that... but are you sure u meant chaps or do you mean chaps?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 02:46 PM - 05/07/14
So I did that 0ms 4ms 8ms test thingy and I'm curious to see what Publix got.

Do you just wear a bib constantly throughout the day? To catch the tears, dribbling, and your food?

Avoid much?


You're soooo effin thick its actually unreal loooooool

I never said i could feel the difference is through actions over 8ms to 4ms

 I said i would be able to feel the difference or shpuld i say "see"
As in how much smoother the mouse movement would translate into onscreen movements e.g the fluidity of the crosshair...

So much derp....

It was a simple curiosity, no need to be so defensive.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: mist4fun on 02:47 PM - 05/07/14
Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy.
Cheers m8
LoL, okay I laughed that that... but are you sure u meant chaps or do you mean chaps?

Chaps
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 02:50 PM - 05/07/14
Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy.
Cheers m8
LoL, okay I laughed that that... but are you sure u meant chaps or do you mean chaps?

Chaps

what do you get when you mix a chap with a calf?
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Lord Of The Sith on 02:51 PM - 05/07/14
Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy.
Cheers m8
LoL, okay I laughed that that... but are you sure u meant chaps or do you mean chaps?

Chaps

May as well lock this one down mist, we got what we came here for!
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: RookCheck on 02:53 PM - 05/07/14
Yeesh and I, being the jolly old chaps and good sports that we are, have chosen to entertain this fallacy.
Cheers m8
LoL, okay I laughed that that... but are you sure u meant chaps or do you mean chaps?

Chaps

May as well lock this one down mist, we got what we came here for!

So it's cool to insult others, but once someone throws one your direction the thread has gone to far? Cool.
Title: Re: Will the XIM4 ever reduce input lag to lower than 8ms?
Post by: Dale on 02:53 PM - 05/07/14
I believe we should make a new thread where we all lobby to make non-offensive words, to be offensive. I choose, "blender"