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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: RookCheck on 01:20 PM - 12/12/13

Title: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 01:20 PM - 12/12/13
Codemaster.

Is it possible to create a framework that pulls the data from the CoD Ghosts app's Clan Wars database to create a minimalist leaderboard.

The app is crap ... who cares about wiremeshes of irrelevant locations? ugh.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 01:27 PM - 12/12/13
Probably is a way.  The easiest would be if there's a SDK available.
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 03:45 PM - 12/12/13
Probably is a way.  The easiest would be if there's a SDK available.

It would be the easiest, but I've not been able to find even the rumor of an SDK for the ghosts app.

My guess is that they are very protective of that POS program and don't want it being used other than how they distribute it.

So somehow we'd have to sniff the IP query and packet
... things. I have no idea. I just build PCs.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 04:12 PM - 12/12/13
Without an SDK I would go the http bot scrubber route before I'd mess around with packet sniffing.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 04:26 PM - 12/12/13
Without an SDK I would go the http bot scrubber route before I'd mess around with packet sniffing.

Yes. That. I know some of those words.
Title: Tuff
Post by: PlaDale on 04:42 PM - 12/12/13
Dude I play with made an alternative site that pulled stats from elite and got a c&d within a couple days. It was a nice site too. They don't have an official way to do it.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 04:47 PM - 12/12/13
Dude I play with made an alternative site that pulled stats from elite and got a c&d within a couple days. It was a nice site too. They don't have an official way to do it.

Well it wouldn't be stats as much as a live feed of the current clan wars. The app has tons of useless crap all over it. I just want some straight dataz.

And the site wouldn't be public. Heck. I'm not even interested in a site ... just a simple program that runs on the desktop, or even an APK that runs in a virtual ... just something that gives actually useful information.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Ding Chavez on 04:54 PM - 12/12/13
They dont have an RSS feed for their data?  Bungie always did with Halo... I just assumed it was an industry norm.
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 06:55 PM - 12/12/13
They dont have an RSS feed for their data?  Bungie always did with Halo... I just assumed it was an industry norm.

The issue is that each "war" is a unique data set relative to the respective clans involved. It's not the cumulative data of an account.
Title: Tuff
Post by: PlaDale on 08:49 PM - 12/12/13
Elite does nothing really well. Plenty of games have gotten stats right long ago, I don't know why it's beyond the call of duty devs to get it right
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 09:21 PM - 12/12/13
While it is the same account framework, the app is, as far as I can tell, slightly different from elite. Maybe it's not, but there are two separate apps, one for Elite and this one.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 08:46 AM - 12/13/13
There isn't an SDK/API, you'll have to network monitor for the sites hit...

Easiest way is to ARP poison the device with the app then use fiddler to monitor the https/http traffic this will give you the calls they are making...

You then make those calls.

I might look at the protocols when I get home unless something shiny catches my eye
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 08:48 AM - 12/13/13
I don't mind writing a web app for you guys if the data is readily available.  I just don't have the time to go digging for a reliable data source though.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 10:41 AM - 12/13/13
There isn't an SDK/API, you'll have to network monitor for the sites hit...

Easiest way is to ARP poison the device with the app then use fiddler to monitor the https/http traffic this will give you the calls they are making...

You then make those calls.

I might look at the protocols when I get home unless something shiny catches my eye

That would be pretty awesome.

I don't mind writing a web app for you guys if the data is readily available.  I just don't have the time to go digging for a reliable data source though.

Understandable. I'm just kicking ideas around; I don't have any expectations that I'm getting priority treatment. The actual design of the app would be pretty easy, since it's just a matter of logging all changes that occur to a database.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: NinjaX2 on 11:13 AM - 12/13/13
Get off your 'i am entitled to a working app" horse rook..

good lord.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Beezles on 11:25 AM - 12/13/13
ya rook - they don't need to make something actually useful!
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 01:08 PM - 12/13/13
That would be pretty awesome.

Indeed, i'm bored at work but I can't do this because i can't run through the network here...hurm...

Understandable. I'm just kicking ideas around; I don't have any expectations that I'm getting priority treatment. The actual design of the app would be pretty easy, since it's just a matter of logging all changes that occur to a database.

Yeah, just to be clear I would likely just be making an SDK or API documentation and putting it in GIT hub...
I don't like getting cease and desist letters so the website wouldn't be something I'd make...
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 02:46 PM - 12/13/13
That would be pretty awesome.

Indeed, i'm bored at work but I can't do this because i can't run through the network here...hurm...

Understandable. I'm just kicking ideas around; I don't have any expectations that I'm getting priority treatment. The actual design of the app would be pretty easy, since it's just a matter of logging all changes that occur to a database.

Yeah, just to be clear I would likely just be making an SDK or API documentation and putting it in GIT hub...
I don't like getting cease and desist letters so the website wouldn't be something I'd make...

A website would be easiest, but I'd prefer a standalone program. If it were developed in a browser environment, I'd want to keep it private. This isn't for public consumption.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 09:46 AM - 12/16/13
So for those few who's interest was peaked by this little thread, the next clan war starts on Wednesday. This will be your opportunity to play with whatever methods you had in mind to get/display that info.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Dale on 09:48 AM - 12/16/13
IW has already said publicly that they regret not making a website to go along with their APP. ClanWars/ Clan vs Clan has been a huge flop.
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 10:04 AM - 12/16/13
IW has already said publicly that they regret not making a website to go along with their APP. ClanWars/ Clan vs Clan has been a huge flop.

Indeed. Which is why we are only in it until the bodycount camos are ours.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Dale on 10:05 AM - 12/16/13
dammit. I want the body count camo :/
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Beezles on 10:08 AM - 12/16/13
1 down, 3 to go
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 10:10 AM - 12/16/13
dammit. I want the body count camo :/

Easy solution. Join for the clan wars, pubstomp for a few days, ????, profit.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Dale on 10:15 AM - 12/16/13
Aslan would not approve :p
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 10:30 AM - 12/16/13
Aslan would not approve :p

Aslan = your ego
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Dale on 10:32 AM - 12/16/13
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/01/Aslan2005.jpg)
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Beezles on 11:34 AM - 12/16/13
aslan is definitely not amused
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 12:59 AM - 12/18/13
ABC, what would I need to do to help glean the info we're looking for?

 The data should start being pushed later this afternoon and I have nothing but free time.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 09:19 AM - 12/18/13
Basically if you are capturing the data you are already doing what I am going to do.

I will be ARP poisoning my home network so I am sent the same packets as my iPhone.  I am then going to use Fiddler to monitor the requests that pass through to see if they are basic HTTP/HTTPS.  Otherwise, i'll open wireshark and monitor the packets. 

So basically if you are doing this you already know the calls to make.  They are most likely not using a RESTful API and instead are likely doing it all through custom data which means monitoring packets and reverse engineering the functions to call these methods on their end.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 10:58 AM - 12/18/13
I'm going to pretend to know what you're talking about and then Google everything you said.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 12:15 PM - 12/18/13
I'm going to pretend to know what you're talking about and then Google everything you said.

Google is our teacher :) 
Title: Re: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 12:47 PM - 12/18/13
I'm going to pretend to know what you're talking about and then Google everything you said.

Google is our teacher :)

You're telling me.

I have no formal degree in IT, IS, or CS and yet a company I worked for put me in charge of their multimillion infrastructure because I knew how to Google the crap out of any problem that cropped up. I did a fine job too. Poor idea on their part, but I was only there as a temp, so lulz.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 12:56 PM - 12/18/13
That's how I do my job.  I taught myself programming with google.  I still google 75% of stuff, mostly because it's difficult to memorize exact syntax and library calls for the many different languages and platforms I have to keep up with.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 01:22 PM - 12/22/13
I was working on this and unfortunately the app is down...

CONNECT api.live-ca.callofduty.com:443 HTTP/1.1

Is all I have thus far...i'll continue it tonight.

Edit: nevermind cert issue with proxy...i'll fix that tonight
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 01:54 PM - 01/03/14
Any luck with figuring out an SDK or API documentation? They've improved the app ever so slightly, but my goal remains the same - creating a simple spreadsheet with pertinent data, sans dumb-a$$ wireframes.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: BionicTbag on 02:50 PM - 01/03/14
I was working on this and unfortunately the app is down...

CONNECT api.live-ca.callofduty.com:443 HTTP/1.1

Is all I have thus far...i'll continue it tonight.

Edit: nevermind cert issue with proxy...i'll fix that tonight


hey abc123... what do you program in?  i use php mostly...
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 02:58 PM - 01/03/14
Any luck with figuring out an SDK or API documentation? They've improved the app ever so slightly, but my goal remains the same - creating a simple spreadsheet with pertinent data, sans dumb-a$$ wireframes.

I ran into an issue with SSL certs, should be able to solve it now that I have a jailbroken iPhone.

hey abc123... what do you program in?  i use php mostly...

none of that was coding, it was just tool use to reverse engineer.  I created a Fiddler Proxy and attached my iPhone to it. 

I then ran the application and watched traffic.

I code in:
C, C++, C#, php, python, JavaScript, AppleScript, and a dash of Objective C

I heavily do C# web-services in MVC.NET and FrontEnd development with JavaScript (jQuery, KnockoutJS, BackboneJS).

My main job is fixing issues that our 100 developers pump out into production...i'm a code overseer...
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: BionicTbag on 03:01 PM - 01/03/14
that sounds like a awesome gig!
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 03:03 PM - 01/03/14
that sounds like a awesome gig!

Definitely, I work in Jeffersonville, IN as a Senior Developer for a large payment processor...I won't say names but a google should work.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 03:09 PM - 01/03/14
We need to talk dude... I might be sending resumes out in a few weeks/months.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 03:35 PM - 01/03/14
We need to talk dude... I might be sending resumes out in a few weeks/months.

Definitely, feel free to send me your resume/email.  We can talk using any medium you'd like, if you want I can also send about 100 headhunters your way...

I get about 10 job descriptions a day, and 2 phone calls.  They will be interested in you too :)  I just need to go over your resume and i'll be happy to be a reference for you, if needed (or help you find a job). 
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 03:37 PM - 01/03/14
I'll let you know what happens.  I'm ok for now, it's just a matter a time before our market is all dried up and they can't justify a dev team.  Probably a few months at least.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: firesnatch on 10:09 AM - 02/06/14
Guys, I stumbled upon this thread while doing some searches.  I just started trying to figure out the API.  I know it creates a cookie for authentication and uses json requests and responses.  Here is an example of how to use the API to see a high res version of my clan's emblem:

https://api.live-ca.ghosts.callofduty.com/emblems/clanEmblem?size=500&title=ghosts&imgtype=png&background=0&clan_id=220302741

Let me know if anyone is interested in working together.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: BionicTbag on 10:25 AM - 02/06/14
Guys, I stumbled upon this thread while doing some searches.  I just started trying to figure out the API.  I know it creates a cookie for authentication and uses json requests and responses.  Here is an example of how to use the API to see a high res version of my clan's emblem:

https://api.live-ca.ghosts.callofduty.com/emblems/clanEmblem?size=500&title=ghosts&imgtype=png&background=0&clan_id=220302741 (https://api.live-ca.ghosts.callofduty.com/emblems/clanEmblem?size=500&title=ghosts&imgtype=png&background=0&clan_id=220302741)

Let me know if anyone is interested in working together.


give me a link to their API.. should be pretty simple...to use and create something
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: firesnatch on 10:35 AM - 02/06/14
You have to post json requests to api.live-ca.callofduty.com.  The protocol is not documented anywhere.  I'm still trying to figure it out how it all works.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 11:16 AM - 02/06/14
sooo, abc does your firm have any remote jobs? that would be interesting  ;D

tuff, i really, REALLY, hate learning syntax. once i get my degree and finish a couple of starter jobs i might moonlight on a personal project to build a SW that would act as a translator for coding. i know there are some available for this and that but i'm talking legit "write it in english anyway you want as long as it's coherent and the app will translate it optimised (as much as possible) to whatever language you want (from the supported list)" ..

i'm unaware of any sw that does this already, and i'm aware of the challenges coding such a thing would bundle.. but i think openscourcing a library to improve the built base could really do the trick of how to get the thing to achieve any degree of polish and usefulness.


just imagine it guys, a world where you just have to do the algorithms freely without any worries about language but optimisation.. it would still require knowledge of the languages though, just forgive syntax and such petty PIA crap
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 11:18 AM - 02/06/14
tuff, i really, REALLY, hate learning syntax. once i get my degree and finish a couple of starter jobs i might moonlight on a personal project to build a SW that would act as a translator for coding. i know there are some available for this and that but i'm talking legit "write it in english anyway you want as long as it's coherent and the app will translate it optimised (as much as possible) to whatever language you want (from the supported list)" ..

Make sure you take as many compiler courses as possible then.  Maybe even the AI courses.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 11:33 AM - 02/06/14
Make sure you take as many compiler courses as possible then.  Maybe even the AI courses.

i'm getting a headache just from reading compiler courses -_-'

i'll only have AI in masters i think (depending on what masters i pick) the current degree i'm in has so little to teach on AI it's not even funny.. not that it matters much as the main point of this degree is to get a guy ready for some crunching.

you know the first thing the degree director says to us (after intros and whatnot) ? "this degree is meant to teach you the ropes (basics) and install some attributes onto you, not to teach you everything you'll need to work. the point being that you are ready to face work as a challenge and then have the proper tools to then learn all you'll need to properly overcome the challenges by YOURSELVES" translation: " oh fu*k you if you think you came here to learn anything beyond basics, we will teach you taking care of your own mess by any way possible, which will be your day-to-day in any job anyway"


so, while my classes are helpful every semester we get a fun and joyful experience to have to make a project (an app) all by ourselves in group and we are basically left in the wild to do it.. 60% coding,20% google,10% staring at PC or each other while trying not to give in to despair or kill anyone, 5% procrastination online or off, rest 5% is BS like reports and such. it's like joyful and fun like xmas, in hell, if you want to pass.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: BionicTbag on 11:36 AM - 02/06/14
sooo, abc does your firm have any remote jobs? that would be interesting  ;D

tuff, i really, REALLY, hate learning syntax. once i get my degree and finish a couple of starter jobs i might moonlight on a personal project to build a SW that would act as a translator for coding. i know there are some available for this and that but i'm talking legit "write it in english anyway you want as long as it's coherent and the app will translate it optimised (as much as possible) to whatever language you want (from the supported list)" ..

i'm unaware of any sw that does this already, and i'm aware of the challenges coding such a thing would bundle.. but i think openscourcing a library to improve the built base could really do the trick of how to get the thing to achieve any degree of polish and usefulness.


just imagine it guys, a world where you just have to do the algorithms freely without any worries about language but optimisation.. it would still require knowledge of the languages though, just forgive syntax and such petty PIA crap


i love the idea, but your talking about a project it would take a super-hero-developer that knows the ins and outs of several languages so well..  that project would take a single developer years to create.. IMO


if you dont like syntax, your going to be hard pressed during your project.


if you were able to pull that off, you could become rich quickly... I guess.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 12:16 PM - 02/06/14
i love the idea, but your talking about a project it would take a super-hero-developer that knows the ins and outs of several languages so well..  that project would take a single developer years to create.. IMO


if you dont like syntax, your going to be hard pressed during your project.


if you were able to pull that off, you could become rich quickly... I guess.

it's like you are reading my mind! i'd love to get friends on board because i don't really plan to learn every major language to support really.. i guess it's why openscource would really help but then again it needs a proper base for people to iterate on or otherwise it would literally be outsourcing the work to volunteers and that sounds really wrong in every way..

i guess i may just save up some pennies from a few years work and then just pray no one in the industry has already done and pay a team to help me with it... it will be really hard to do, but then again, whenever i take a serious look at some of the software we have available today it's mind shattering to imagine the brilliant minds and amount of hours behind them.. humanity has really come to a point where we make the most amazing "scripts", still not in real AI points but we are really cutting it close given how limiting hardware still is..

this project doesn't demand a true AI, just your run of the mill AI in current terms.. it's possible to do, i'm sure of it, which is what is appealing to me aside from the money, but some issues behind the translation and some syntax rules would really really make it hard to implement. i guess understanding the raw "english" code wouldn't even be the hardest part... tuff really nailed it with the compiler courses remark, as it will take A LOT of manhours/genius to crack some single "translations" i reckon.


not to mention the project blatantly demands a large user test base, it's impossible for a small team to imagine all the ways to "code" in english.. how on earth would i get that without either some beta and people actually getting in it by some chance or paying, it'd be impossible..
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 12:57 PM - 02/06/14
Eeeehehehehehe college computer science professors.  I took precisely one programming class at a local university before deciding it wasn't for me.  I had already been in my current job for two or three years.  The worst part was when he wanted us to each write a silly GUI app using his own homegrown win32 GUI lib.  It was broken, wouldn't even compile.  I had to fix it for him when the entire class couldn't use his library.

The most hilarious part was when I broke his brain when he was trying to explain tertiary C++ statements.  I asked him if you could nest them, and he said "I don't think so"... I walked up front and wrote it on the white board.  The whole time he's just shaking his head.  Another student typed in and compiled what I was writing on the white board.  It compiled and worked.  He just couldn't grasp it.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: BionicTbag on 01:37 PM - 02/06/14
had a similar thing happen, not as complex.. but told a PHP teacher that PHp considers a blank a ZERO.  you could see the look on his face thinking about how many programs he needed to go rewrite.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Xog on 06:50 PM - 02/06/14
Eeeehehehehehe college computer science professors.  I took precisely one programming class at a local university before deciding it wasn't for me.  I had already been in my current job for two or three years.  The worst part was when he wanted us to each write a silly GUI app using his own homegrown win32 GUI lib.  It was broken, wouldn't even compile.  I had to fix it for him when the entire class couldn't use his library.

The most hilarious part was when I broke his brain when he was trying to explain tertiary C++ statements.  I asked him if you could nest them, and he said "I don't think so"... I walked up front and wrote it on the white board.  The whole time he's just shaking his head.  Another student typed in and compiled what I was writing on the white board.  It compiled and worked.  He just couldn't grasp it.


Wow, that must've felt amazing LOL
Title: Tuff
Post by: PlaDale on 07:23 PM - 02/06/14
Ak is trolling you guys, he's talking about wolfram language LOL
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: Speagles on 07:27 PM - 02/06/14
Make sure you take as many compiler courses as possible then.  Maybe even the AI courses.

i'm getting a headache just from reading compiler courses -_-'

i'll only have AI in masters i think (depending on what masters i pick) the current degree i'm in has so little to teach on AI it's not even funny.. not that it matters much as the main point of this degree is to get a guy ready for some crunching.

you know the first thing the degree director says to us (after intros and whatnot) ? "this degree is meant to teach you the ropes (basics) and install some attributes onto you, not to teach you everything you'll need to work. the point being that you are ready to face work as a challenge and then have the proper tools to then learn all you'll need to properly overcome the challenges by YOURSELVES" translation: " oh fu*k you if you think you came here to learn anything beyond basics, we will teach you taking care of your own mess by any way possible, which will be your day-to-day in any job anyway"


so, while my classes are helpful every semester we get a fun and joyful experience to have to make a project (an app) all by ourselves in group and we are basically left in the wild to do it.. 60% coding,20% google,10% staring at PC or each other while trying not to give in to despair or kill anyone, 5% procrastination online or off, rest 5% is BS like reports and such. it's like joyful and fun like xmas, in hell, if you want to pass.

If you're expecting to exit college knowing everything you'll ever need to know about programming you're going to have a bad time.  Your professor's quote pretty much explains exactly what computer science is curriculum is.  If you can't problem solve and think critically on your own you shouldn't be a software developer.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: RookCheck on 08:13 PM - 02/06/14
Gais.

Stahp.

Crack the code on the Ghost API so I can pull raw data instead of wireframe structures.

 I know AK gets distracted easily, but let's try and keep his thread-lock/thread-derailment count down ... for all our sakes.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 05:37 AM - 02/08/14
If you're expecting to exit college knowing everything you'll ever need to know about programming you're going to have a bad time.  Your professor's quote pretty much explains exactly what computer science is curriculum is.  If you can't problem solve and think critically on your own you shouldn't be a software developer.

you don't say? it's not about knowing everything, but the bare minimum. i don't feel they teach what i'd consider the bare minimum, i think they only teach the basics that don't amount to as much as i'd like to know. of course there are constraints that are not their fault, like i'm talking about a simple degree not a masters (it's not a bachelors either).

on a masters degree we learn part of what is missing but while i like my degree i don't like any of the masters i've seen available. and the masters is a specialised course, not a generalist one like the normal degree.. and that is a problem since i'd like to have more flexibility and proper schooling instead of self-learning, job-learning and taking courses outside of a college.



Ak is trolling you guys, he's talking about wolfram language LOL

i wasn't trolling that's still not out and to be honest i had forgotten about it. sounds good though ^^
but i had this idea for a long time now, and i know famous people that did also. i think it's normal to have this idea once you are faced with dealing with 2-3 languages that are opposite in level.


Eeeehehehehehe college computer science professors.  I took precisely one programming class at a local university before deciding it wasn't for me.  I had already been in my current job for two or three years.  The worst part was when he wanted us to each write a silly GUI app using his own homegrown win32 GUI lib.  It was broken, wouldn't even compile.  I had to fix it for him when the entire class couldn't use his library.

The most hilarious part was when I broke his brain when he was trying to explain tertiary C++ statements.  I asked him if you could nest them, and he said "I don't think so"... I walked up front and wrote it on the white board.  The whole time he's just shaking his head.  Another student typed in and compiled what I was writing on the white board.  It compiled and worked.  He just couldn't grasp it.

wow. just wow. and we complain about our teachers.. they are not like that at all! problems we have is stuff like maths teacher giving a class that is not math. coders teaching sw engineering (those without experience in design and only in coding, aka following instructions),etc
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 09:41 AM - 02/08/14
ak, the whole "type in English" thing is likely not as desirable as you might think.

I've never seen anything auto-generate code that generates good code. There are just too many decision points that the compiler isn't going to know that a human will about how the system is going to be taxed and how it needs to behave. Because of this, the compiler is often going to do something that works but not necessarily right for the given purpose. So, for example, it might do something that works but extremely inefficiently that eats all of your memory or CPU for no valid reason.

If you take an Algorithms course you'll understand exactly why. We would have to break some world-changing boundaries of artificial intelligence to accomplish what you're looking for.

Believe me, different programming languages' syntax is the most trivial part of being a developer, and not having control of the exact code that gets written is just going to produce junk applications.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 10:30 AM - 02/08/14
ak, the whole "type in English" thing is likely not as desirable as you might think.

I've never seen anything auto-generate code that generates good code. There are just too many decision points that the compiler isn't going to know that a human will about how the system is going to be taxed and how it needs to behave. Because of this, the compiler is often going to do something that works but not necessarily right for the given purpose. So, for example, it might do something that works but extremely inefficiently that eats all of your memory or CPU for no valid reason.

If you take an Algorithms course you'll understand exactly why. We would have to break some world-changing boundaries of artificial intelligence to accomplish what you're looking for.

Believe me, different programming languages' syntax is the most trivial part of being a developer, and not having control of the exact code that gets written is just going to produce junk applications.

oh i know, so now you understand the ambition. i initially thought that at least one of the ends, either high level or lowest level, programming languages would be easier to deal with to create this but that was really naive.. i got into a wall immediately

i'm aware of the difficulty, and that is why i think open source would be the key really. i fear that even if such software would be feasible, the compiling times would be insane.. they already are slow as is, making the system run a few dozen lines of code, or hundreds to find contextual info to decide how to translate a line properly through a database reeks of crazy slow times no matter the machine's capacity out side of an entire server grade supercomputer..


i don't know man, i think building it one language at a time is fundamental and just because i say write in plain english doesn't mean some stuff won't be locked on tight. i think we need to look at how magnificent and universal math is to begin with, but since math alone and propositional logic won't cover every aspect of programing there needs to be deep study of "plain english" syntax matchups.


one way to solve some stuff is having a database with as much examples as possible and their translation, this much is obvious. but dealing with the sorting of such info via the machine by itself and understanding personal trends as well as the nuances proper to each language is really reaching for the sky.

simple things as pointers existing or not in a language are fixable part of the time, but other stuff isn't at all or easily.



think of it this way: my theory is that if we build the translation a language at a time (so people will have to have the knowledge of the language still but just have more leeway with syntax like symbols used and so on) and then start improving that single language translation to be more and more forgiving of the syntax it should be possible (probably in manhours not suited for just 1 person) to achieve the goals. if one language can be achieved then i have proof of concept and should be able to get investment and help to finish the rest..


some languages are really easy to aim for this, some others not at all. but i still think it's completely possible, just really hard. i look at several softwares that very same way. people didn't think some things were possible some time ago and yet they are here now..


and like pladale mentioned i'm not even alone in this, people are wanting to make more "universal" languages to code in all over.




PS: again, keep in mind i just want to cut syntax, not cut having to gather knowledge about a language altogether. but i think we should view it as low to high tiers of the same language and not languages a,b and c with entirely different syntax each.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 11:04 AM - 02/08/14
Yeah, I get what you're saying. I guess I just wouldn't like giving up that level of control over my code.

There are a few languages already, like Ruby, that aim to be "more like natural language," and so far I dislike all of them, lol.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 11:32 AM - 02/08/14
Yeah, ruby sux balls. Syntax is merely semantics. If you are used to programming you can hammer out a rudimentary understanding of most any languages in about an hour.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 11:53 AM - 02/08/14
The unfortunate part is that I've been stuck messing with a fair amount of Ruby lately as I've been re-working our devops system at work to be based on Puppet manifests, which has involved a lot of ruby templates and ruby scripts for checking system environments for files or services.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 12:12 PM - 02/08/14
our intro in college is Java. do you know how much i hate to be constantly writing " ; " everywhere? and the IDE does everything for us, like for real.. Netbeans is the most coder friendly stuff i've seen, it will tell me if i'm looking at the screen wrong LOL (obvious hyperbole is obvious)

coding languages must have rules so they are precise. i get it. low level languages exist precisely to let humans decide how to optimise the code. i get it too. but ffs let's cut all the bloat. let's make it truly accessible and not just intuitive. because today's most used stuff are mostly pretty intuitive i'll give you that. just not lazy friendly..

i should have warned in the beginning this is mostly due to laziness and little else. 1st world problems 100%.

i have a serious problem with laziness, not joking at all. apparently writing is one of the few things i'm not too lazy to do as long as it's just chatter.. my games backlog is colossal due to the laziness of having to learn a new game and just going for the easy path that is booting one that i know by heart LOL

so what i wanted was to only have to "learn algorithms" and be done with it almost. that much i know already..
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 12:22 PM - 02/08/14
you know how frustrating it is that upon facing a problem i can pseudo code everything i'm thrown at in beginners level in "plain english" and then need someone to translate it to Java for me since i won't be able to do it all correctly? and Java must be the easiest language ever to learn.. but it still demands learning, i disapprove of that.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 12:25 PM - 02/08/14
I hate languages that *don't* close lines with the semi-colon. Hate them with a passion. I like having explicit control over where my line ends or doesn't end. If you don't have line that ends with a semicolon, then it must end with a new line which means you either have to write really long lines of code, which is terrible for readability, or add a bunch of concatenation syntax to say "don't consider this line break to be a new line," which I find awkward.

In terms of having to spend time learning - anything that's worth doing requires you to spend time learning.

Be careful with Netbeans, it has a bug that I've encountered in many versions that cause files to report as "saved" but not be saved on the file system. I lost like four hours of work once that way.

The absolute best Java IDE, in my opinion, is IntelliJ from JetBrains. It's not free, but, I feel like it's worth every penny. It can also support pretty much any other common development language, so I use it for just about everything, except Objective-C.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 12:35 PM - 02/08/14
we can use that too(for free) i think, i'm stuck with netbeans because of classes. i would have the freedom if i knew what i was doing, but being a noob teachers wouldn't approve of taking that kind of initiative.

yeah i hate using it but i also prefer the " ; " to " enter ". i have a friend with mild OCD (i'm just calling it that) about his code organisation and he has a low resolution on his laptop, his code is funny it looks like comics.
while i once knew a very good coder that basically didn't like to press enter for no foreseeable reasons. after seeing 2 modules of his code i sweared i would never be like that in my life.. that is unusable, he had a 10ish line module in 1 line, i spent more time interpreting that then making it a few days before..


the " ; " was just an example though, true problem is what you said - anything worth it requires minimal time learning. this is the apocalypse prophecy for a sloth like me..
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 01:10 PM - 02/08/14
Don't get me wrong, if things turn into the Matrix some day and full knowledge of something can just be downloaded to my brain, I'd be totally fine with that.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 01:48 PM - 02/08/14
how long would humanity last if that was so? all the ill intended people and the stupid one's would now hold the power that comes with unlimited knowledge!!! mixed feelings LOL
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 05:24 PM - 02/08/14
Netbeans is alright... best option I've come across for debugging php.

Lol singlecoil, i bet you hate python.

Ak, dude... if you dislike the semicolons in java i bet you would have a heart attack if you ever mess with lisp.

For a fun time you should check out Ook or brainfuck.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 08:03 PM - 02/08/14
You know, it's weird, I don't mind Python. The lack of semicolons makes me shudder, but the other good things about the language kind of make up for it.

For debugging PHP, the combination of PHPStorm and Xdebug blows away Netbeans. Try it sometime.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: tuffrabit on 09:52 PM - 02/08/14
I heart Python.  I know it's very far and away from .NET and C#, but it's wondrous nonetheless.  I had to write a plugin for Mozilla Thunderbird to support our product's email/contacts/calendar collaboration/syncing service.  If I didn't have the option of Python for that, it would've been a crazy mess.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: abc123 on 10:20 PM - 02/08/14
You know, it's weird, I don't mind Python. The lack of semicolons makes me shudder, but the other good things about the language kind of make up for it.

For debugging PHP, the combination of PHPStorm and Xdebug blows away Netbeans. Try it sometime.

Hey I do DevOps at my company too...and have to write puppet scripts...are you me?
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: singlecoilpickup on 12:10 AM - 02/09/14
I don't think I'm you, but I often black out and have time unaccounted for.

I only do a minimal amount of DevOps stuff, but in general I end up wearing a lot of hats.
Title: Re: Tuff
Post by: ak-xs on 01:04 AM - 02/09/14
Ak, dude... if you dislike the semicolons in java i bet you would have a heart attack if you ever mess with lisp.

For a fun time you should check out Ook or brainfuck.

if lisp is what i think it is, if i'm ever forced to learn it i'll need a lot of weed or i fear for the people around me..
wasn't J.Carmack all over that in the last QuakeCon?

ook and brainfu*k i was told before already, major laughs when we found that in our freshman year (we have some crazy traditions for freshman here, it's really fun but i didn't pass anything as i didn't go to a single test.. good - irresponsible but- good times ^^)