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General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Memento_Mori on 05:51 AM - 02/19/09

Title: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 05:51 AM - 02/19/09
Dear all,

I saw in many discussions people boasting their 1600-2000DPI mice as a must. Since I always played with a 400DPI mouse and believe it works just fine, I decided to open this discussion to convince you all about my point.

Let us consider this graph:
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/mouse_precision.png)

Sensitivity: this basically measures how much you move your mouse to get a 360 in the game. I took a range between 5cm (~2inches) which is a very high sensitivity up to 40cm (~15 inches) which is very low.

Precision: this measure the smallest in game rotation that the mouse can do.

Example: with a sens. of 15cm/360 the precision of a 400DPI is around 0.15.

As you can see from the graph, the 1600DPI mouse is much more precise than the 400DPI one, especially at lower sensitivity. But the real question is: Do I need that precision?

To answer that let me take an example. You are shooting at a target 30 meters (~100 feet) away.
(http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/mouse_precision_30.png)

Sensitivity: same as above.

Precision: This is the smallest correction you can do shooting at 30m (~100feet).

Example: with a sens. of 15cm/360 the accuracy of a 400DPI at 30m is below 10 cm.

Again, the 1600 is more precise, but unless you go toward very low sensitivities, the 400DPI mouse is precise enough. And consider that usually when you are shooting at a distant target, you use the weapon scope which usually lower the sensitivity (as well as the field of view).

I hope this clarify your thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: incredible on 06:07 AM - 02/19/09
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 06:21 AM - 02/19/09
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

;D
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: CEOrko on 06:52 AM - 02/19/09
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

If only. The default 60Hz for the XIM2 doesn't help either, but then I'm not wanting a much higher update rate for the right reasons to begin with.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: tameanaka on 07:31 AM - 02/19/09
Do you mean 30m = ~100ft...?  Nice info, generally I'm a pretty low sensitivity player and I play around 800-1200dpi usually.  We'll see what the optimum is with the xim once mine comes.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 08:05 AM - 02/19/09
Do you mean 30m = ~100ft...?
Fixed, thanks.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: toysrme on 10:18 AM - 02/19/09
Any lag in the system is lag.

there is lag between your hand moving and the mouse picking it up - dpi. there is lag between your mouse reporting the movement and the PC picking it up - usb polling rate, there is lag in the XIM software processing this to your form of XIM input. there is lag in the XIM input reporting the movement to the console. there is lag in the console outputting the video & audio signals that return you to your brain telling your hand to move the mouse.

Ive posted this before which you no doubt read. On my laptop alone, with my G9 using the setpoint drivers:
7.79ms @ 125htz
4.83ms @ 200htz
3.84ms @ 250htz
2.91ms @ 333htz
2.01ms @ 500htz
?ms @ 750htz
1.01ms @ 1000htz
I game, I run 1000htz. The only reason the mouse comes off 1000htz is to do something CPU intensive. Running XIM software is not.

What does 8ms+ worth of lag do at 125htz or less? It pushes the lag between when you move and when your brain sees it coming through your video driver another 8+ seconds behind when you made it. That's putting a so-so 12ms LCD screen into the happy puking 20ms+ refresh range & putting a nicer newer LCD display into the so-so catigory. ya, its noticeable.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 10:58 AM - 02/19/09
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: nickstudy on 11:15 AM - 02/19/09
people here think that with a 1000Hz mouse on a 125Hz xbox usb port it will somehow 'work' superfast with 1ms response time...
ah consoleros...

Bottleneck FTW.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: toysrme on 12:54 PM - 02/20/09
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).
and my point is that that single point is not the only place that takes time. there is time taken long before you even reach the step of XIM/Controller sends input to the xbox
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 05:55 PM - 02/20/09
Sorry if I quote myself...

If the last step of the pipeline has a tickrate of 125Hz, you could have a trillion Hz mouse before but it would not matter. Look at this picture:

(http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/tick_rate.png)

Having 1000Hz does not change the speed of electrons, nor the xim processing. It simply reduces the waiting time between one mouse input and the other. But this leads nowhere, as only one input per xbox tick can pass.

The error is that when you convert 1000Hz to 1ms or 125Hz to 8ms, you are wrong in thinking that this is the "processing" time (so the former is faster). This is a waiting time. The transmission and processing of the signal has the same speed.

I hope I convinced you.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: incredible on 02:01 AM - 02/21/09
His point is that the xbox360 USB port will always be the bottleneck (it will stay at 125Hz no matter what you set to your mouse).
and my point is that that single point is not the only place that takes time. there is time taken long before you even reach the step of XIM/Controller sends input to the xbox

its been said that anything works on 1000Hz (MX510, IE3.0 etc. which are the first REAL gaming mice)
btw what kind of edge it gives when at the end xim+g9 for example = xim+intelli3.0 (when processing to xbox)
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: tweak on 11:28 AM - 02/21/09
I think toysrme's point in all of this is that, although from a technical standpoint there's no real superiority due to the aforementioned bottlenecks, there's still a human factor to be taken into consideration and that mice with higher DPI and polling rate can compensate in a way. 

Ultimately we're gonna use the mouse that makes us happy so it's really a moot point.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: toysrme on 03:15 AM - 02/25/09
partly.
also that the average update speed for a slow movements of a 125htz mouse is >20ms. which... anyone that's ever played on a slower LCD monitor. listened to surround sound audio that's out of phase, or anyone that's played on an XIM 1 and thought it sucked, then played an XIM2 with the exact same hardware and setups - and thought the XIM2 was "oh my god better".

will tell you that the higher you poll your mouse, the faster its movement is going to be read by the PC and sent on its merry way.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Boddiebagger on 04:31 AM - 02/25/09
Sorry if I quote myself...

If the last step of the pipeline has a tickrate of 125Hz, you could have a trillion Hz mouse before but it would not matter. Look at this picture:

(http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/tick_rate.png)

Having 1000Hz does not change the speed of electrons, nor the xim processing. It simply reduces the waiting time between one mouse input and the other. But this leads nowhere, as only one input per xbox tick can pass.

The error is that when you convert 1000Hz to 1ms or 125Hz to 8ms, you are wrong in thinking that this is the "processing" time (so the former is faster). This is a waiting time. The transmission and processing of the signal has the same speed.

I hope I convinced you.


I am by no means an expert on any of this, but from my understanding from this chart its not making sense. You saying the optimum setting is 1/1?

Your assuming that at a 1 to 1 poll rate the the xbox and mouse rates are in sync where the mouse is sending its signal at the last possible moment before the xbox process's its own. The xbox rate and mouse rate on a timeline can and will be out of sync. For your assumption to be correct the xbox will have to recieve the signal from the XIM/mouse at the very last moment before it sends its own signal. There is no way to guarentee that the mouse, XIM, and xbox poll rates are in sync on a timeline. So from what im seeing, a mouse poll rate at 1000hz will give you 8 times the chance the xbox is recieving the most up to date signal. Am i right?
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 10:20 AM - 02/25/09
Sorry if I quote myself...

If the last step of the pipeline has a tickrate of 125Hz, you could have a trillion Hz mouse before but it would not matter. Look at this picture:

(http://n.ethz.ch/student/gnoris/download/tick_rate.png)

Having 1000Hz does not change the speed of electrons, nor the xim processing. It simply reduces the waiting time between one mouse input and the other. But this leads nowhere, as only one input per xbox tick can pass.

The error is that when you convert 1000Hz to 1ms or 125Hz to 8ms, you are wrong in thinking that this is the "processing" time (so the former is faster). This is a waiting time. The transmission and processing of the signal has the same speed.

I hope I convinced you.


I am by no means an expert on any of this, but from my understanding from this chart its not making sense. You saying the optimum setting is 1/1?

Your assuming that at a 1 to 1 poll rate the the xbox and mouse rates are in sync where the mouse is sending its signal at the last possible moment before the xbox process's its own. The xbox rate and mouse rate on a timeline can and will be out of sync. For your assumption to be correct the xbox will have to recieve the signal from the XIM/mouse at the very last moment before it sends its own signal. There is no way to guarentee that the mouse, XIM, and xbox poll rates are in sync on a timeline. So from what im seeing, a mouse poll rate at 1000hz will give you 8 times the chance the xbox is recieving the most up to date signal. Am i right?

Yes, you are.

What you depict is a worst case scenario and the higher polling rate for the mouse the better the chances you get a sync. What I depicted in the graph is a best case scenario, where you get a perfect sync.

The reality is that we likely have an average scenario, where I guess you have ~4ms delay for 125Hz mouse and ~0,5ms for the 1000Hz.

So in some sense toysrme was right.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: toysrme on 07:34 PM - 02/25/09
how god damned ignorant are you?


the PC must process the mouse input. period. the faster it does this, the less amount of time it takes for the input to reach the screen. period.
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Memento_Mori on 03:33 AM - 02/26/09
how god damned ignorant are you?

I have a master in computer science from a good European university and I'm doing a phd at a very well known company, and yes, I usually feel quite ignorant  about stuff that is new to me. What about you, pal?

the PC must process the mouse input. period. the faster it does this, the less amount of time it takes for the input to reach the screen. period.

Look, I have the impression you are not curious about this topic, and you are here only to enforce your opinion, blindly passing trough any post that apparently goes against what you say.

If I am wrong, just tell me and I'll spend more time than I already have writing my point of view. Otherwise bye bye...
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: RecklessLG on 12:55 PM - 02/26/09
800 DPI is probably the best setting for most gaming purposes.

Let's debunk the most popular myth and the biggest gimmick perpetrated on gamers since the beginning of the history of gaming mice.

Higher DPI does not equal higher presicion.

First of all the term DPI is wrong as well, as mice uses Counts Per Inch or CPI.  CPI is the resolution of your mouse sensor, or how many "counts" can the mouse detect when you move 1 inch.   But just for the sake of simplicity and less confusion, let's call it DPI.  Now, let's take a mouse with one of the highest DPI settings in the market.  The "Razer Lachesis" and its impressive 4000 DPI.  Also, for this test let's assume we have a 24'' wide screen monitor with a resolution of 1920x1200.  In order to test this more accurately, we would also have to have a configuration of this mouse of 1:1 (or in plain English "max sensitivity").  Now, if we set this mouse to 4000 DPI and we move it only 1 inch the pointer will fly through the screen almost twice in width in under an inch of movement.  Since the mouse becomes unmanageable you have to modifying either the DPI or the sensitivity.  Let's say you move the slider for sensitivity to the exact middle, that will turn the sensitivity multiplier to 0.5 and thus successfully downgrading your 4000 DPI mouse into a 2000 DPI one.   This is why high DPI mouse statements are gimmicky and ridiculous, yet, they help sell more expensive mice.
So... why everybody says higher DPI will make me more accurate?  the answer is simple, it's marketing B.S.

Still not convinced? - http://www.fragyou.net/?page_id=24
Title: Re: Why 400 DPI are enough for everybody...
Post by: Tonester on 08:41 PM - 02/28/09
Many of us have already stated this.  I made a post which clearly showed all the DPI you would need depending on your "turn rate" and the size of your monitor:

http://xim3.com/community/index.php?topic=406.15

Essentially, no one needs more than 1200-1600 DPI for a 360.

Here is the short of it:

So, how much DPI would your mouse need for COD4 on an XBox 360 in Hi-Def?

1080p / 6000 pixels:
High Sens: 360 degrees in 0.1 m (4"), roughly 1500 DPI needed
Medium Sens: 360 degrees in 0.25 m (10"), roughly 600 DPI needed
Low Sens: 360 degrees in 0.50 m (20"), roughly 300 DPI needed

720p / 4000 pixels:
High Sens: 360 degrees in 0.1 m (4"), roughly 1000 DPI needed
Medium Sens: 360 degrees in 0.25 m (10"), roughly 400 DPI needed
Low Sens: 360 degrees in 0.50 m (20"), roughly 200 DPI needed

Now, keep in mind that these speeds are based upon hardcore PC players.  I would think the speeds would be a bit lower across the board due to speed constraints in the console versions of games.  It would be interesting to see how the highest sensi allowed for COD4 on a 360 compares to these speeds above on the PC version.