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XIM APEX => XIM APEX Discussions => Topic started by: year0 on 10:56 PM - 05/08/22

Title: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: year0 on 10:56 PM - 05/08/22
My navi is about at the end of its life and i was wondering what alternatives people are using with good results? Iíve literally never used a keyboard for gaming (and donít really want to) either but i know there are some other devices people use and wanted her a recommendation?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 11:15 PM - 05/08/22
Azeron Compact. Flat wrist rest. Join us. You know you want to.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 06:54 AM - 05/09/22
Azeron Compact. Flat wrist rest. Join us. You know you want to.

I've joined - my Azeron Compact arrives today. I must be mad, I get to play about 2 hours a week and I just keep buying gmaing gear I'll barely use!
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: TurboMan on 07:50 AM - 05/09/22
Azeron seems like the obvious choice, but I own one myself and it's just sat in the box collecting dust. It's a nice idea but it needs a lot of improvement IMO. It's supposed to be a controller-keyboard hybrid but it fails to effectively bring some controller features along with it.

Firstly, the "L3" button i.e. clicking in the thumbstick to sprint - it's ridiculously stiff and it's just not practical to press it while playing. I've been lifting for 10+ years so my wrist/hand strength is substantial but yeah, even I have trouble. Also the "directional hat" is no replacement for a d-pad, it's so fiddly and for someone who plays battle royale games like myself, looting with it is a pain. Also for someone with big hands like me, the ergonomics aren't good, sat there for hours tinkering and adjusting everything and still couldn't get it feeling comfortable.

I really hope in the near future, XIM release a nunchuck style controller similar to the Nav with more accessible buttons on top rather than just the two shoulder buttons. Absolutely guaranteed to sell, given the fairly large number of Nav users that play on a XIM.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: year0 on 09:02 AM - 05/09/22
Azeron Compact. Flat wrist rest. Join us. You know you want to.

Is that made by razer? when i googled it a bunch of their stuff comes up?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 10:08 AM - 05/09/22
Who maps L3 to Sprint, unless forced to? It's used far too frequently to relegate to a clunky stick press.

I bind Sprint to my ring finger pull (fingerprint), Jump on index, Crouch on middle. All three chain neatly for complex movement.

I like the d-pad and there are 24 buttons to map to whatever you want wherever you want.

Analog movement is the big one and Azeron does a great job of that by allowing it to be calibrated. It also works perfectly for wheel menus using an AUX with stick swap.

Azeron makes Azerons. Compact is IMHO the most comfortable and best model. I have the Classic and Cyborg and loathe the towers.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: TurboMan on 04:14 PM - 05/09/22
Who maps L3 to Sprint, unless forced to? It's used far too frequently to relegate to a clunky stick press.

I bind Sprint to my ring finger pull (fingerprint), Jump on index, Crouch on middle. All three chain neatly for complex movement.

I like the d-pad and there are 24 buttons to map to whatever you want wherever you want.

Analog movement is the big one and Azeron does a great job of that by allowing it to be calibrated. It also works perfectly for wheel menus using an AUX with stick swap.

Azeron makes Azerons. Compact is IMHO the most comfortable and best model. I have the Classic and Cyborg and loathe the towers.

Having sprint right there on your left thumb is just intuitive. Moving forward and clicking in, almost like pushing into the ground with your feed to start a sprint IRL. It's not clunky on most controllers, it's however just not practical on the Azeron.

Maybe this is just the lifelong controller player in me speaking here, but I gather that controller players converting to mouse are the Azeron's primary market and several people I've spoken to have the same complaints re: key controller features missing from this cross-over device.

It's why I'm always confused by the lack of actual d-pad - really can't wrap my head around the discussion in the Azeron office about having this fiddly hat instead of just a tried and trusted d-pad.

So, for me, the Nav is the better device to pair with a mouse when using the XIM - the ergonomics, the actually functional L3 button, the actual d-pad... the only gripe of course is the lack of buttons that can be accessed without taking one's hand off the stick, but even then there are some tricks you can use to free up the thumb to access the d-pad on the move and of course mice with multiple buttons.

I manage to make it all work with a very simple G305 mouse as a battle royale player, but an extra button or two on the top of the Nav would of course be more convenient.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 04:54 PM - 05/09/22
How are you mapping your Azeron? Iíll post mine, if youíre interested.

I use a G305 too and canít access the side-buttons (lefty mouser), but have a very comfortable control scheme setup on Azeron to compensate for my lack of mouse buttons.

I find the Nav too small with too few buttons to be usable with G305. It never felt right in my hand.

For me, Azeron is right up there with XIM as a game changer, I wouldnít play any game without it, including on PC (reWASD integration is great).

Have you seen the new Azeron device mock-ups? Itís much closer to a Nav and has some interesting features like inbuilt mouse sensor and scrollwheel. I would never use it as a mouse, but it looks viable as a Nav replacement if you think of it as a mini Azeron.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: preston47s on 07:14 PM - 05/09/22
I use a Splitfish FragFX Chuck which seems to have a lot of similarity with your Sony Nav, I pair it with the Razer Naga Trinity which you can add about 10 buttons on your thumb area
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: Domenic.HRO on 05:20 AM - 05/10/22
I use a Splitfish FragFX Chuck which seems to have a lot of similarity with your Sony Nav, I pair it with the Razer Naga Trinity which you can add about 10 buttons on your thumb area

Does the Splitfish FragFX Chuck work with the xim without restrictions?  Are all keys assignable via the xim manager?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: Domenic.HRO on 05:22 AM - 05/10/22
I use a Splitfish FragFX Chuck which seems to have a lot of similarity with your Sony Nav, I pair it with the Razer Naga Trinity which you can add about 10 buttons on your thumb area


does the Splitfish FragFX Chuck work wired or wireless with xim apex?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: preston47s on 07:30 PM - 05/10/22
Does the Splitfish FragFX Chuck work with the xim without restrictions?  Are all keys assignable via the xim manager?

does the Splitfish FragFX Chuck work wired or wireless with xim apex?

It definitely works without limitations, one button cannot be assigned because it is specifically for creating macros, the remaining buttons are assignable.

It's wireless
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 07:37 PM - 05/10/22
*whisper* SplitFish products have awful build quality.

I bought two FragFX devices (wired & wireless) before I discovered XIM 3, roughly 11 years ago. They're bottom of the barrel stuff, only use their stuff if you're desperate and have no other options.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: TurboMan on 08:33 AM - 05/11/22
Yeah, I see no advantages of a Splitfish over a Nav (huge missed opportunity with that "programming" button to just have it as an extra functional button and have the programming button elsewhere) and the Nav can generally be picked up for a lot less $
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: preston47s on 11:06 AM - 05/11/22
Yeah, I see no advantages of a Splitfish over a Nav (huge missed opportunity with that "programming" button to just have it as an extra functional button and have the programming button elsewhere) and the Nav can generally be picked up for a lot less $
It isn't as cheap as the Nav but it's main advantage over the Nav is the handling design over the Nav, I have a Nav myself and there's no way I am playing with this controller over the Fragchuck. Nav is designed more like a TV remote, while the Fragchuck is designed to grip on your hand. I must say thr build quality isn't the best for sure.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: TurboMan on 05:06 PM - 05/11/22
It isn't as cheap as the Nav but it's main advantage over the Nav is the handling design over the Nav, I have a Nav myself and there's no way I am playing with this controller over the Fragchuck. Nav is designed more like a TV remote, while the Fragchuck is designed to grip on your hand. I must say thr build quality isn't the best for sure.

I always found the Nav comfortable. I have large hands, not sure if that's why.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: year0 on 09:29 PM - 05/11/22
Those splitfish arenít cheap.. You know, with all the components Iíve got laying around everywhere I should just frankenstein something together myself..
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 01:47 AM - 05/13/22
How are you mapping your Azeron? Iíll post mine, if youíre interested.

I use a G305 too and canít access the side-buttons (lefty mouser), but have a very comfortable control scheme setup on Azeron to compensate for my lack of mouse buttons.

I find the Nav too small with too few buttons to be usable with G305. It never felt right in my hand.

For me, Azeron is right up there with XIM as a game changer, I wouldnít play any game without it, including on PC (reWASD integration is great).

Have you seen the new Azeron device mock-ups? Itís much closer to a Nav and has some interesting features like inbuilt mouse sensor and scrollwheel. I would never use it as a mouse, but it looks viable as a Nav replacement if you think of it as a mini Azeron.

Really liking the Azeron Compact so far - but finding buttons joy_5 and Joy_11 don't respond well in games through the Xim Apex. Button clicks register perfectly fine in the Azeron software, but in game via Xim they're just not registering. E.g. I'll map reload (X), in Apex Legends, to Joy_5, but I'll have to mash it for the reload to happen. Wondering if I was missing something obvious.

Feels almost as if there's a rollover/ghosting problem - but as I say, in the Azeron software, there doesn't appear to be an issue. Was curious if you've experienced anything similar Antithesis?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 04:50 AM - 05/13/22
You can edit the button timing in Azeron Software. I canít recall what thatís labelled (Iím not in front of the PC), but I had an issue with one of the buttons double-clicking all the time and changing the timing fixed it.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 05:05 AM - 05/13/22
You can edit the button timing in Azeron Software. I canít recall what thatís labelled (Iím not in front of the PC), but I had an issue with one of the buttons double-clicking all the time and changing the timing fixed it.

Thanks, I'll take a look at that - see if that gets it to be more responsive.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: ganzneu1975 on 05:37 AM - 05/13/22
I have a similar problem in BF5, sometimes I can't jump and get stuck. Could this be due to the timing of the keys? Had 0ms and have now increased to 3ms.
But can not see any improvement how much can you increase without disadvantages? Do you have experience?

I'm waiting longingly for the new azeron. Is there a release date?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 05:47 AM - 05/13/22
Console games typically don't register button presses under 20ms. Try at least 8ms as that roughly corresponds to 120FPS.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 12:16 PM - 05/19/22
Liking the compact Azeron generally, but still unimpressed by the responsiveness of the switches. Tried different timings but it regularly seems to miss some presses in game.

Probably something Iím missing. Iíll have to see what itís like direct in a PC rather than in the Xbox via a xim.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 04:08 PM - 05/19/22
I don't miss a press, ever. I also didn't mess with switch timing, except for increasing it on one when it'd consistently double-press instead of single.

If you've set the timing too low, that'd be why they're being missed. Console games aren't going to register a 3ms press.

The thing that annoys me is my Azeron not being detected by Azeron Software on PC, so I can't check what my settings are to help with this thread.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: Oskool on 05:54 PM - 05/19/22
I alway wondered what debounce is. The two metal contacts of the switch actually bounce off each other a few times when the button is pressed causing multiple button presses to register.

Debounce is the delay after the button is pressed before the system checks the switch position again. Giving time for the metal contacts to stop rattling against each other which causes the voltage to fluctuate between 5V (on) and 0V (off).

(https://media.geeksforgeeks.org/wp-content/uploads/20191113173218/Switch_Debounce_2.jpg)

https://www.geeksforgeeks.org/switch-debounce-in-digital-circuits/

Knowing this, a debounce time of 20ms means you can click (1,000ms ų 20ms = 50 clicks per second) before any clicks will fail to register.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 05:27 AM - 05/20/22
I don't miss a press, ever. I also didn't mess with switch timing, except for increasing it on one when it'd consistently double-press instead of single.

If you've set the timing too low, that'd be why they're being missed. Console games aren't going to register a 3ms press.

The thing that annoys me is my Azeron not being detected by Azeron Software on PC, so I can't check what my settings are to help with this thread.

Yes it's a funny thing - as I say the presses show, without fail, in the Azeron software when connected to the PC. Also now had opportunity to test in Apex Legends on the PC and there is no missed presses.

Through the xim in Apex Legends and Warzone, there is regular failure to register presses and that's at default settings.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: Oskool on 07:47 AM - 05/20/22
Are you using a powered USB hub?
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 02:12 PM - 05/20/22
Are you using a powered USB hub?

I wasn't, but tried one to test after you mentioned it. Still getting the same issue. Will mess some more see if I can figure this out.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: antithesis on 03:22 PM - 05/20/22
Set the button timing to 20ms and see if things improve on console. And I agree with the powered USB hub, my Azerons donít work on XIM without using one.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 02:04 AM - 05/21/22
Set the button timing to 20ms and see if things improve on console. And I agree with the powered USB hub, my Azerons donít work on XIM without using one.

Will do, tried settings above and below the default 10ms - but not as high as 20ms. Going to try a different powered hub than the one I used as well, just in case.
Title: Re: Alternative to keyboard / sony navi
Post by: pulpbiggles on 04:10 AM - 05/22/22
Right, sorted it. The 20ms seemed to sort it. Then I also changed all the buttons to keyboard rather than joystick buttons. Had a few games and the problem seemed to be sorted completely. The keyboard/joystick change might just be placebo as the 20ms change seemed to sort it, but I'd had in mind to make that change anyway.

Thanks for helping me to trouble shoot!